Running sound in a small brick bar is hard

The band was a dead cover band slash hippie rock...
Drummer singer
Guitarist singer times three
Bassist
Keyboardist sax player

The bar was long and narrow.

I recorded everything, but only ran the vocals and keys and acoustic guitar through the pa.

The pa was 1 bose tower, 1 powered wedge for monitoring, and 1 powered speaker on a speaker stand.

It sounded awful. Despite trying to notch the EQ to help with feedback there was tons of it.

I used EQ on every channel and did my best.

I used expander on the vocal Mics so when the band stopped the Mics wouldn't feedback. I used a little compression too.

Only one of the vocal Mics was a condenser. We tried switching it for another but still had trouble.

Members of the band tried to help but that created a bit of mayhem. The would just change the level of the wedge not conscious of the fact that this meant I either had to bring down the levels in the other speakers our reduce the send to the wedge.

One member unplugged a Mic despite the fact that it wasn't being sent to anything, only recorded, in an attempt to fix the feedback.

It was such a bummer. I keep hoping that with more practice I will one day get good at this, but it is really hard when the pa and Mics aren't yours to get it all under control.

It sucked for the band too.They have to be able to hear themselves.

I guess I'm just looking for sympathy. I keep trying despite a really awful record.

http://stabilitynetwork.b...1_PreacherManLANDR.mp3

http://stabilitynetwork.b...N02_LoveLightLANDR.mp3

I record live bands quite a lot. It's fun for the band to have a nice recording of the gig.
 
It is also fun to see how good it COULD have sounded.

And yes, you are right Jeff, the band was loud and there was nothing I could do about it. They weren't unenjoyably loud. Just loud. If the vocals could have been in there nicely, it would have been great! The lead singer sent me to turn down the guitar amps which I did once, but I couldn't get to the bass amp and they just turned them back anyway so it didn't help much.
 
Yes, absolutely, if the band could have turned way down then it would have sounded fine. I'm not sure the band could have gotten the same energetic feeling with a quieter jam, but the sound could have been excellent.
 
I know the monitors/speakers get much louder, I just couldn't get them louder without feedback. So, really, in the end, once I'd EQ'd as best I could, I could only take volume from one speaker and give it to another. So, more monitors translates to less mains.
 
BTW, I was using Windows (I sometimes use Linux). :-) Windows was not a problem this time.

Some venues are just acoustically terrible and that's an end to it.

Getting anything other than feedback out of the PA can be a victory in itself, and that's with a good PA not a mix of whatever can be strung together.

One thought though. It sounds like one of those situations where splitting the mic signals pre mixer and sending one split to the PA mixer and the other to the recorder can help. Like when stage foldback is mixed from the side of the stage and the FOH PA mixed from out front so the two mixes are completely seperate. Only in this case the recording wouldn't be affected by whatever drastic measures might have been needed at the mixer.

Mind you, in some not too large acoustic nightmare rooms sometimes only putting the vocals through the PA and foldback is the best answer. So long as backline and drummer can cope with the room size of course. Generally they can.

Ah, didn't realise you are using a UCX. I've done similar things with my UFX a couple of times, recording to a USB stick. Once even running the iOS version of Totalmix.

A fully-featured multi-setup mixer in a rack space or two comes in very useful sometimes.

Interesting points. Thanks, TLW. I have taken the time to get the iPad recording working, but really I almost never do it. The UCX doesn't have the USB recording feature, so I have to record on the iPad and this limits me to 8 channels when using the iPad.
 
The UCX has eq on every channel and if you use loopback, you can stack EQs. For example, if you are recording 16 tracks, set the 2 SPIDF tracks to loopback, then route 2 mixes to them. This gives you the outbound compressor/expander+eq on the SPIDF, the inbound compressor/expander+eq on the SPIDF then route SPIDF input to Analog Out for another compressor/expander+eq before sending to a monitor or a main. Just using the SPIDF channels this gives you 3 stacked EQs and Compressors. It also gives you the opportunity for parallel compression if you send the original mix to the same analog output in addition to what comes back on the loopbacked SPIDF channel.
 
I didn't do this Saturday, but I wish I had. Now that I think about it, I could have made 1 the monitor mix and 1 the mains mix rather than maintaining 3 mixes. SPIDF-loopbacked-inputs could have been sent to multiple analog outputs enabling me to use the same mix for more than 1 send (for multiple monitors for example or for 2 mains).
 
Really, I often think that the biggest limitation is my own skill with the stuff I own.

For me, the best use of the SPIDFchannels is locking to my Tascam 2488. That is how I get 24 concurrent channels when I want them. Usually sixteen does it, but not always. When recordings matter I like double mic'ing.

Also, you can loopback any channel, not just SPIDF, but SPIDF are usually unused.

Sorry you had a bad mix experience - lets use it as a learning experience.
 
Feedback:  Feedback is the result of some kind of gain staging buildup Either in the signal chain - or in the air between source and destination.   The real trick to cleaning things up and getting rid of it is having a concrete clear picture of every stage in your signal chain... and keeping it super simple so that in your mind you have a great picture of the balance between air in the room - whats happening onstage - and then the balancing act of microphones, to input gain, eq, compression, and then finally and most importantly POWER.  If your power can only handle so much - like the bose - move that stick right up to the audience and mix that so you can keep your power as minimal as possible.    Did you have a seperate mix for the monitors?  If a singer can't hear themselves onstage - for example - give them an earplug..  because louder is not the answer - and it will only make it much worse and then everyone is miserable.  Guitars and cymbals.  If you are responsible for EVERYONE in the room - not just the band and their uninformed volume war.
 
Speaker placement is key -( I moonlight as both a worship pa guy - and live pa in a few clubs... outside of performing.)
 
I have experience with the bose stuff.
 
On preacher man - That sounds like a fender deville?  Which is a super efficient clean amp that puts out tons and tons of sound that can easily overpower an entire pa... especially the bose stuff.  In many cases those open back fenders absolutely destroy a smaller lower level setup - just pouring muddy lower mids into every available part of the stage.  While the clean side sounds very good, it often forces you to increase the level of the entire venue to match it - which in my experience the bose doesn't really have the oomf to do unless you get a few and place them in key locations.  They just cant move the air to compete.
 
You mentioned that there is a bose speaker behind the band..?  With a condensor mic..?  If thats the case - consider moving that monitor.  As I mentioned - the bose sounds really "Pretty - but with a condensor mic in its field is a certain feedback nightmare.  Its not a good choice for a tight - focused monitor.
 
On the bose stick - in my experience - its best to get that as close to the audience as possible - and I will often - in a band situation - (not a dj style) - flip the bass response switch on the subwoofer to the lowest setting, so that it diverts most of its power to the mids.   It sounds really good but at its nominal setting its very bass heavy - it has a very "pretty" right out of the box sound... which - unless you get a few - gets buried quickly by a loud band.  There is also a pretty nasty 250- 500 hz wall of sound just to the 4 0clock  and 7 oclock part of the pattern.   What that means is that putting the stick next to a wall - is going to send a huge amount of mud along that wall - and back into your stage microphones.

gswitz
We are going to get together during a practice session to see how we might resolve it.

Oh... is it your band..?  So the setup is always the same?

gswitz
I like being portable. It makes it easy to record in lots of different rooms.
 
It's a nice challenge. I keep my gear stored packed so I don't have to pack it up to go out.

Those are all good practices - also - so you dont forget anything.  IF your going to be spending time working abroad you need a "road setup" that stays untainted by your "studio" setup.
 
So here's a few questions as I do very similar work.   What are the exact expectations you are operating under?  Are you selling yourself as a live audio engineer, or as a studio engineer showing up to capture the performance.  Are you expected to mix the room and document the performance?  What kind of console are you using if so.   The mouse controlled daw in a live environment is often not effective in a crisis - such as monstrous feedback.  Ive - for example - had a whole pa screeching while I am flipping through pages on a mackie dl16 ipad in front of a country club.  You need those kill switches that you can hit in a crisis. 
 
If this is going to be an ongoing endeavor where your working in the live domain - capturing - and then returning to remix in the studio domain - etc - you will want to focus first on getting the right live tools.  There are a few digital mixers out there that aren't too expensive that can fire multi tracks to a laptop for later remixing.. yet posess the crisis management needs of a live sound environment.

Listening to the MP3s now...Nice sounding.  Can you describe the mikes/positioning you used for these?
And also what (if anything is going in direct?
 
Thanks for sharing!  I get tired of the original artists version and like to hear other peoples take on them.

patm300e,

There were eight Mics on the drumz.
Two on the guitar... sm57 and mxl ribbon.

1 on the bass.
Three vocal Mics.

Everything is always direct for me. I have only once made a multitrack where I took sends from a board. I have made lots of nice stereo recordings this way.

The drum mics were from a Shure Drum Mic kit.
 
This one...
https://reverb.com/item/2268250-shure-pgdmk6-drum-microphone-kit?_aid=pla&pla=1&gclid=CjwKEAjw1Iq6BRDY_tK-9OjdmBESJABlzoY7pHbWGdQsk1pPP4Ngzsb-5Tg2JqaK-C8X6o5wUQG27xoCCv7w_wcB
 
2 KM184s as overheads.
 
I used a spare kick drum mic on the bass.
 
This is the Ribbon
http://www.mxlmics.com/microphones/studio/R77/
 
We double mic'd the vocals... Shure probably SM87 ?
 
Idk, lots of mics.