Helpful ReplyRyzen vs Intel

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Thedoccal
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2018/11/18 17:21:19 (permalink)

Ryzen vs Intel

If I go Ryzen, will I regret it?

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fireberd
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2018/11/18 17:32:36 (permalink)
Depends.
 
But from posts by DAW builder, Jim Roseberry, "its not ready for prime time" for DAW use.
 
 Read Jim's comments about Ryzen on this thread.
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-m3793486.aspx#3794730

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Thedoccal
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2018/11/18 19:31:05 (permalink)
"If you don't mind being in constant "mechanic mode" it's OK."
"Also keep in mind that many apps/plugins aren't fully optimized for Ryzen."
 
That is what I was looking for.  Case closed.

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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2018/11/19 15:53:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2018/11/19 17:17:50
With AMD's Infinity Fabric architecture, there's a significant performance boost running faster RAM.
I went thru all the top Ryzen motherboards... and none would run DDR4/3200 100% reliably.
All kinds of flaky issues.  Worst hardware roll-out I've seen in 30 years of using PCs.
 
When you've got these (affordable) high-performance options available, I just don't see the point in going AMD.
  • i7 8700k (six cores, 12 processing threads at 4.7GHz)
  • i7 8086k (six cores, 12 processing threads at 5GHz)
  • i9 9900k (eight cores, 16 processing threads at 5GHz)
 
In a perfect (DAW) world, we want high clock-speed *and* more CPU cores.
Not every process can be multi-threaded, thus... you don't want to sacrifice significant clock-speed for more cores.
With the latest socket 1151 CPUs, you've got both.
 
Note:
If the option of Thunderbolt-3 is important to you, it's not available with AMD.
 
 
All this said, I'll use whatever CPU I feel is best at a given time.
We used many Athlon CPUs in the (now) distant past.
Right now, (IMO) there's just not a compelling reason to go AMD.
 
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2018/11/25 20:45:48 (permalink)
I happened to go AMD RYZEN 1950X, running 128 GB RAM 2400, no OC - I have no issues.  I go back and forth between Intel and AMD on CPU's, partly depending on the motherboards and chip sets and such.  For this latest desktop, I settled on the AMD, because at the time, I wasn't too happy with whatever the Intel chip set was doing or not doing at the time of build.
 
I went with Intel for my current laptop - and it is SMOKING fast, with 16 GB RAM and it happens to have 3 hard drives - boot drive is an M.2 NVME 512 GB, another M.2 NVME data drive at 2 TB, and a 2 TB SSD also for data.  The laptop boots in about 5 seconds, and has a Thunderbolt 3 port as well (transfers at 40 Gbps).
 
In any case, I DO believe Intel tends to have faster CPU's, however the AMD CPU's give decent performance for less money for roughly equivalent chips.
 
I have found AMD-based desktops to be stable for me, likely because I choose not to really push things with any overclocking.  My RYZEN desktop gives me zero issues, nor does the laptop.
 
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#5
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2018/11/25 21:57:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SF_Green 2018/12/09 02:49:55
No over-clocking involved in the instability I was talking about...
It was simply trying to run faster RAM (DDR4/3200) - which is much more of a benefit with AMD's Infinity Fabric architecture than with Intel.  The level of flaky behavior was startling (especially upon first release).
Turn off the onboard audio... and SMT (Simultaneous Multi-Threading - Hyperthreading in AMD speak) was gone.
This was across all the top motherboards/brands (not limited to one model).
Gigabyte's AX370-Gaming 5 was the most stable with DDR4/3200.
Even so, after a few days testing, the motherboard would no longer post. 
Had to reset the CMOS and lower the RAM speed to achieve 100% stability.
 
Ironically, you can pop almost any decent DDR4/3200 in almost any Z370/Z390/X299 motherboard... and it'll run rock-solid.
 
With the following two CPUs being recently released (and affordable), you've got an ideal DAW processor.
  • i7-8086k (six cores, 12 processing threads at 5GHz)
  • i9-9900k (eight cores, 16 processing threads at 5GHz)
Super high clock-speed and up to 16 processing threads... in a mid-tier CPU
Z370/Z390 Motherboards are rock-solid... and were from first release
No annoying compatibility issues (like the one I mentioned with Boost 11)
 
For those that don't know...
Not all processes in a DAW can be multi-threaded.
This is why high-clock speed is so important (never want to sacrifice significant clock-speed for more CPU cores).
In an ideal circumstance, you want high clock-speed and more CPU cores.
This is exactly what the 8086k and 9900k deliver... without having to go the expense of socket 2066 (typically considered more of a high-end workstation).
 
Lack of Thunderbolt-3 is also a factor for many folks.
Even if they don't want/need it now, it's nice knowing it's an option.
 
I have zero against AMD.
If the balance shifts, I'd be just as happy to use their CPUs.
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
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mettelus
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2018/11/25 22:32:18 (permalink)
Definitely research, but it seems a lot of the differentiation comes at heavy loads with small buffer size. In reality, most of the CPU's life is spent well below 50% and buffer size is mostly related to tracking. Workflow adjustments would accommodate these as long as it does not suffer inherent stability issues. For a desktop I would be more concerned for the MB upgrade ability, since you will more likely want to expand on that than regret CPU choice in the future.

It is akin to most new cars need to be on a track to top end (legally), but that is really only going to affect you if you race it. The average user won't be affected by it other than to think others care.

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fireberd
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2018/11/26 11:19:04 (permalink)
The difference, as I see it, is a commercial DAW builder has to deliver systems that they can guarantee will do the job the customer wants.  If not they are soon out of business.  A user that builds their own can afford to "tinker" with a build if they desire or accept some lower performance.  
 
A friend with a studio in a Nashville suburb recently (within the last month) bought a new Dell XPS 8930 to run ProTools.  I tried to talk him out of it and to buy one from Jim but he went with the Dell anyway.  As soon as he got it he installed an SSD to replace the stock mechanical hard drive.  It is using the Intel HD video and he is having a problem that if he starts from power on an external HDMI connected monitor works OK, but if he does a restart it does not connect.  That wouldn't happen with a commercial DAW builder system (or it did it would be made right).  Dell is telling him basically "not my problem".
 
 

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robert_e_bone
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2018/12/18 04:39:06 (permalink)
I have a monster system with the AMD RYZEN 1950X and a pile of memory.  It runs like a champ - quite stable, I am running run of the mill memory - just lots of it (128 GB), and with that it seems fine.
 
By the way - WHATEVER advice Jim Roseberry offers is spot on, with this and many other build subjects.
 
I am considering switching over to an Intel CPU and motherboard - mostly to be able to take advantage of Thunderbolt 3 - that is one SMOKING fast transfer speed - up to 40 Gigabits/sec (of course it doesn't actually get there, however it is still crazy blazing fast).  I have it on the laptop I use for live performance, and it is just beyond any data transfer I have ever experienced before.  It's intoxicating.
 
But that would be the reason I might switch - I have gone back and forth between AMD and Intel builds for what feels like a kabillion years - both can work - it often depended on speed balanced against cost.  My current AMD RYZEN works quite happily with whatever I have asked of it.
 
Bob Bone
 

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tecknot
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2019/01/07 04:37:38 (permalink)
One concern I have regarding Intel vs AMD is workstation vs Gaming.  Every laptop I look at is geared for gaming as Intel, as I have read, is geared more for gaming performance and it just so happens the AMD is better suited for workstations.  Unless I put out the bucks for a Xeon, AMD seems to be the better choice but at the cost of TB(3), not to mention that Xeon laptops are heavy and bulky.  Ugh!
 
Kind regards,
 
tecknot
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fireberd
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2019/01/07 11:18:46 (permalink)
The Dell "workstations" (their commercial business workstation line) are just about all Intel.  A couple of the Inspiron gaming desktops are Ryzen and a couple low end (entry) systems are AMD, the rest Intel.
 

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tecknot
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2019/01/07 13:45:10 (permalink)
fireberd
The Dell "workstations" (their commercial business workstation line) are just about all Intel.  A couple of the Inspiron gaming desktops are Ryzen and a couple low end (entry) systems are AMD, the rest Intel.
 


Hi Jack, with all due respect, and I mean that most sincerely, to clarify my point, tests and technical specifications indicate that AMD chips are most effect for the workstation as opposed to Intel's which are more effective in the gaming sector.  That said, it's no surprise that a company like Dell would use the more commonly known Intel in their workstations, not that Intel chips would be ineffective in a workstation.  Speaking from an technical perspective, of which I have no such expertise in (hence my screen name), AMD is and would be the preferred system.  As you may note that many high-end workstation vendors and builders would utilize AMD over i7s and i9s with the exception of the more expensive Xeons.
 
I've read Jim's posts on the subject and if I would be so bold to sparse his words, his point would be a matter of implementation as opposed to the technical benefit and effectiveness of AMD chips in the workstation environment not to mention that ThreadRippers are not even considered these comparisons.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Ryzen vs Intel 2019/01/07 16:58:55 (permalink)
My posts discussing Ryzen are coming from a DAW user's perspective.
A corporate server is a much different scenario.
Corporate servers are bombarded for many small files.
With a DAW, we're addressing many fewer... but much larger/contiguous files.
With a corporate server, since you're dealing with many small files, cache can make a significant difference.
This is why Xeon CPUs (even with lower clock-speed) are a good choice.
For a DAW, dealing with much fewer large/contiguous files, cache makes much less of a difference. 
 
When choosing a CPU for DAW purposes, it's important to understand some basics:
Not all tasks in a DAW can be multi-threaded (spread across multiple cores).
This is why high clock-speed is paramount.
In a perfect scenario, you want highest clock-speed, the most cores you can afford, and Hyper-threading/SMT (simultaneous multi-threading).
 
If you go AMD, there's no option for Thunderbolt-3 (completely off the table).
 
When Ryzen was first released, supporting hardware (motherboards) were clearly "rushed out the door".
I've discussed this in numerous threads.  
With AMD's Infinity-Fabric architecture, running faster RAM (DDR4/3200) is a significant speed boost.
Finding a motherboard that can run DDR4/3200 rock-solid stable is an epic quest.
Out of all the top-tier motherboards, only one came close. 
After several days, it simply refused to post.  Had to clear the CMOS and reset the BIOS settings.
Note that no over-clocking was implemented.  This is all at stock-speed... trying to run DDR4/3200.
 
If you spend the majority of your time rendering video (which is a heavily multi-threaded task), don't expect to ever need Thunderbolt-3, and aren't concerned with the speed benefit from faster RAM, Ryzen is a good choice.
 
For DAW purposes, the new Intel i9-9900k (socket 1151) is hard to beat (~$540).
  • 8 cores
  • 16 processing threads
  • 5GHz clock-speed (all cores can be locked at 5GHz)
  • With quality air-cooler, it runs near dead-silent
  • Thunderbolt-3 is an option
 
The (socket 2066) i9-9980xe is one monster of a CPU... best overall performance currently available
  • 18 cores
  • 36 processing threads
  • 4.5GHz clock-speed
  • Thunderbolt-3 is an option
Cost is also monstrous ($2000 just for the CPU)
Requires high-end power-supply
Requires high-end cooling (air cooling can't keep temps under control when under heavy loads like rendering video)
 
If going to the expense of ThreadRipper (also requires high-end cooling/power), I'd just go all the way and get the 9980xe.  
 
 
Note that if going ThreadRipper or socket 2066 i9 CPU, the machine isn't going to run as quiet at the 9900k.
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
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