Answered[SOLVED] At what stage is the audio finally clipped?

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rogeriodec
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2016/12/07 18:08:34 (permalink)

[SOLVED] At what stage is the audio finally clipped?

Just to confirm:
As shown in the image below, on track 1, I increased the gain to the maximum to force the clipping of the audio.
And on the Master Bus, I turned the volume down, so on this bus there was no clipping.
The question is: was the audio effectively lost on track 1 (before it goes to the bus), as indicated in red?
Or not, nothing is lost because I lowered the volume on the bus to compensate the excessive volume on track 1?
In other words, should I worry about audio clipping on the original tracks or just on final bus?
 

post edited by rogeriodec - 2016/12/08 10:17:44

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#1
THambrecht
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/07 18:13:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2016/12/07 18:15:58
The audio is definitely clipped when only one of the plugins has reached more as 0dB.

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#2
chuckebaby
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/07 18:28:09 (permalink)
I wouldn't worry about using the gain too much unless you are feeding (for example: a VST plug in) that has no input.
In short: The Gain knob is the input section of the desk, the fader is the post section.
Always make sure your Master bus is set to 0db/Unity. Turn down the faders to make up for the overloading.
 
Theoretically, each track adds 3db in the over all mix.
If it were as easy as sending 1 track to the Master bus, this would be cake/easy.
Because there would be no difference. but as you add more and more tracks, each track will add 3db to the over all end point/Master bus.
 
In conclusion, turn down your faders and check out your signal path so when you gain stage your not overloading anything.

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#3
ampfixer
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 00:27:06 (permalink)
Once you cause/record distortion you sill hear it. If the destination buss is still in the green, then you will still be carrying the distorted sound but it's not turned up enough to cause new distortion on the destination buss.
 
That's exactly what your screen shots show. The source is overloading but the buss isn't. But the output from the buss will have the original overloaded/distorted sound.

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#4
Boydie
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 02:52:53 (permalink)
Your track is "clipping" so it would be best to turn down this track (gain first to 0, then the track fader) to get it out of the red

Within SONAR you may or may not actually "hear" the clipping but it is good practice to avoid clipping on the track, even "in the box"

The most likely place you will actually hear the effect of clipping is when you drive a plugin or VST too hard, especially in the pro channel where you go from plugin to plugin - keep an eye on the clip indicators and use gain staging to ensure the volume coming out of one plugin does not overload the next one (which is easily done)

You can insert an empty "dummy" FX Chain to give you some level control at any point within the Pro Channel to help keep things under control

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#5
slartabartfast
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 04:20:54 (permalink)
Sometimes it helps to think of digital audio as simply data. Changes in the value of each sample can be recorded up to 0 dBfs. Digital overs ("clipping") happens when the numerical value of the sample exceeds that threshold, at which point all larger values are lost or more accurately rendered as the highest value that can be represented. The fluctuations in the value of the sample are what carries the audio information, and over values lose that information. There is no way to recover information lost at any stage of the process, so clipping at any point is going to be carried forward in all subsequent operations. 
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rogeriodec
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 08:20:44 (permalink)
I did a test that answers my own question (and probably differentiates what has been said so far).
If Sonar indicates an audio clipping (red) on the source track, this DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WAS DISTORTED ON THE SOURCE TRACK.
As the images below can prove, even Sonar indicating audio clipping on track 1 (which I purposely increased + 6db on the volume), it is not actually clipped internally, and can be completely recovered if I compensate the volume on the bus (which I deliberately decreased -6db in volume, to compensate).
 
1) I created a WAV file with a single sine wave, normalized to -3db:

 
2) In Sonar, I increased +6db, indicating audio clipping on track 1 and also on Master Bus:

 
3) The bounced file naturally shows the clipped audio (I manually normalized it to -3db for visual comparison purposes only):

 
4) Now, In Sonar, I reduced -6db on the Master Bus to compensate (and avoid audio clipping on the Bus):

 
5) And the image below shows that the original audio, even though shown as clipped on track 1, was fully restored back to the Bus, only compensating the volume down.

 
This way I can understand that the red indication of clipped audio on the original track does not actually clip the audio in the source, preserving it to the end (which is a good thing).

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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 08:29:02 (permalink)
I've understood the (32 bit) floating point bit rate somehow eliminates the down sides of going to red as long as you're inside SONAR. When and how does it come to the picture?

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AntManB
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 08:29:07 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby miracledee 2016/12/23 01:33:27
Interesting result.
 
I presume one of the Bakers can confirm your findings definitively, but I assume this is due to the fact that the audio is routed internally at a higher bit depth than the actual bit depth of the project so there is additional headroom until the very last output stage.
 
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bitflipper
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 09:58:24 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby rogeriodec 2016/12/08 10:14:23
 
Here's the short answer. It's not 100% technically complete, but that's why it's a short answer.
 
Digital audio does not clip within the DAW, up to and including the master bus fader.
 
When a meter indicates clipping, it's predicting the future; no clipping has actually occurred yet but probably will happen once the data leaves the DAW.
 
So your intuition is correct: you can indeed turn the gain down at the master bus and erase any previous level sins. 
 
However, there is one big caveat. The data passes through many individual processors before it gets to the master bus, and you can't know with certainty that none of them will be thrown off by positive dB values. In fact, experience has taught me that many plugins don't handle it well. The result can be a subtle degradation that you might not even notice until you bring everything down and suddenly your mix sounds better. Sometimes, the degradation isn't subtle at all.
 
Bottom line: you're better off keeping levels under control at every stage.
 
 


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pbandit
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 11:00:49 (permalink)
I learned a lot from this tutorial about gain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv5H59Ri9as
 
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ampfixer
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 17:07:57 (permalink)
Wow, time to unlearn everything. IF I clip the source track causing audible distortion I can remove it during the mix??? I can't wrap my brain around that. Sounds like quantum theory, where things can be, and not be, at the same time. I'm having an Advil moment right now. 

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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 19:50:14 (permalink)
Easy to understand video (IMHO):
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-TpPLzRpsU

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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/08 21:52:42 (permalink)
ampfixer
IF I clip the source track causing audible distortion I can remove it during the mix??? 



I know you're being silly, af, but somebody might read that and take you seriously. Nothing clips within the DAW. If you distorted it while recording, well, that happened before it became DAW data. So there.


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ampfixer
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/09 11:45:35 (permalink)
No Dave, I'm not being silly. I honestly don't get it. It's obvious that my analogue brain is completely missing a fundamental bit of information. I REALLY don't understand the concept underlying you explanation. If it doesn't clip within the DAW, where does it clip? I'm feeling pretty stupid. 

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rogeriodec
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/09 12:24:55 (permalink)
ampfixer
If it doesn't clip within the DAW, where does it clip? I'm feeling pretty stupid. 




After this my study and after the collaborations in this topic, I understood, in summary, that the audio clipping occurs effectively in 2 moments:
1) In the last step of the last BUS, where the final audio file will be generated;
2) Or, eventually, within some VST placed on some intermediate track or bus, which does not know how to deal with excessive volume.

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bvideo
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/09 13:32:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby rogeriodec 2016/12/09 13:41:21
rogeriodec
ampfixer
If it doesn't clip within the DAW, where does it clip? I'm feeling pretty stupid. 




After this my study and after the collaborations in this topic, I understood, in summary, that the audio clipping occurs effectively in 2 moments:
1) In the last step of the last BUS, where the final audio file will be generated;
2) Or, eventually, within some VST placed on some intermediate track or bus, which does not know how to deal with excessive volume.


There is one other, less likely case: if a user has set the render bit depth to 24 or 16, any intermediate clip/track bounced or frozen could clip. The default is 32 bits, which behaves like all internal calculations, allowing large level changes without clipping, and with great dynamic range. The render bit depth is configurable in Edit > Preferences > File - Audio Data : File Bit Depth : Render Bit Depth.

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ampfixer
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/09 15:52:15 (permalink)
I can't believe that I've completely missed a fundamental concept like this. Thanks to everyone for pointing me toward the truth. It's going to be tough. All the threads about tracking levels and I've never seen this mentioned. It was always track at -8 to -6, and leave room on the mixdown for mastering. 
I've been to professional studios where they watch the levels like hawks and never go near 0db. Must be residual thinking from the old days.
Thanks again for the education.

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/09 16:43:41 (permalink)
This doesn't mean you can ignore proper gain staging techniques!
 
Like Dave said, if you clip on the way in to Sonar you're stuck with it and no amount of mix wizardry will unclip it.
 
Once you have a healthy recording IN Sonar you can mangle it up all you want, (paying attention to gain staging throughout for clean, spacious mixes), but you can certainly overload tracks and easily compensate for this at either bus or master level, nothwithstanding the fact that certain plugins do not react well to having their inputs overloaded.

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JayCee99
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/09 16:49:15 (permalink)
bitflipper
 
Here's the short answer. It's not 100% technically complete, but that's why it's a short answer.
 
Digital audio does not clip within the DAW, up to and including the master bus fader.
 
When a meter indicates clipping, it's predicting the future; no clipping has actually occurred yet but probably will happen once the data leaves the DAW.
 
So your intuition is correct: you can indeed turn the gain down at the master bus and erase any previous level sins. 
 
However, there is one big caveat. The data passes through many individual processors before it gets to the master bus, and you can't know with certainty that none of them will be thrown off by positive dB values. In fact, experience has taught me that many plugins don't handle it well. The result can be a subtle degradation that you might not even notice until you bring everything down and suddenly your mix sounds better. Sometimes, the degradation isn't subtle at all.
 
Bottom line: you're better off keeping levels under control at every stage.
 
 


This is a great explanation, but I'm still confused why in rogeriodec's example, when he boosts the signal by +6db, it actually shows clipping?  Is that because bouncing it sends it through the master bus and therefore makes it actually clipped in reality? 

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PeterMc
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/09 16:49:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby rogeriodec 2016/12/09 18:49:29
Clipping occurs when audio signals represented as integers exceed the maximum or minimum possible value for an integer. 24 bit integers can store a much larger range of numbers than 16 bit integers, but can still get maxed out.
 
Your audio interface works with integers, both going in and coming out of the DAW. However, internally a DAW works with floating point numbers. The conversion happens when importing/recording or exporting audio. This includes reading/writing wav files stored in the audio folder. wav files are stored in integer format.
 
Floating point numbers can represent a MUCH larger range of values. Once audio data is within the DAW software, it is extremely difficult (effectively impossible) to get clipping.
 
However, as others have noted, some plugins may react badly to large floating point numbers. I'm not sure why - maybe they make some assumptions about the size of the incoming signal. The meters in Sonar must make similar assumptions. So best to keep the signal amplitude in the sane range, but behind the scene, insanity is tolerated!
 
Cheers, Peter.
p.s. It just occurred to me, why don't audio interfaces convert analog audio input to floating point numbers? Probably because the typical analog/digital conversion chips produce integers (16/24/32 bit).

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#21
PeterMc
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/09 19:21:31 (permalink)

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#22
thedukewestern
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/10 00:32:25 (permalink)
Clipping occurs when my nails get too long and the string gets underneath

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thedukewestern
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Re: At what stage is the audio finally clipped? 2016/12/10 00:35:10 (permalink)
But Seriously - I dont know the science behind what bitflipper has mentioned, however I do know that all of the levels we constantly keep tabs on are designed to at some point be turned into voltage by 1 machine to be recieved as voltage, by another.  

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