[SOLVED] Project file size inexplicably bigger (due to nondestructive MIDI editing)

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Tripecac
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2011/10/05 03:29:47 (permalink)

[SOLVED] Project file size inexplicably bigger (due to nondestructive MIDI editing)

Yesterday I recorded 4 tracks of MIDI (using Kontakt), about 10 minutes each. The project's file size was around 2 MB. Today I cleaned up those tracks by fixing bad notes, deleting accidental hits, and splitting the drum sounds into separate tracks (e.g., kick, snare, etc.). I also deleted a bunch of volume changes.

So, the total number of events is much less than before I cleaned up the project. However, the project file is now over 4 MB! I'm surprised it's actually bigger, since there's less MIDI data in it.

Is this because I split the drums into separate tracks? Why would that inflate the file size?

Has anyone else noticed this problem?
post edited by Tripecac - 2011/10/05 13:34:47

tripecac.com
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Project file size inexplicably bigger 2011/10/05 05:17:17 (permalink)
    Is this because I split the drums into separate tracks?


    I think we might have a winner.

    Additional tracks = more disc space yes?

    I don't think this is a problem, and anyway, a 4MB file is absolutely TINY by today's standards.

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    michael japan
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    Re:Project file size inexplicably bigger 2011/10/05 06:54:47 (permalink)
      Good show Bristol

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    Tripecac
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    Re:Project file size inexplicably bigger 2011/10/05 11:34:48 (permalink)

    Additional tracks = more disc space yes?

    We're talking MIDI, not audio, so I don't understand why moving events to different tracks should radically increase the amount of data.

    Each MIDI event has 7 values: track, time, channel, event type, and 3 "data" values.

    Changing the track value of a MIDI event should not increase the data size at all, at least in terms of uncompressed data.  Sonar's compression algorithm might benefit from keeping the events in the same track (or channel, or event type), but it's hard to believe it would matter by a factor of more than 2, since there are 6 other values for each MIDI event.

    Also, I've done this sort of drum track splitting on all my other projects, and never noticed the project file size increasing significantly.

    I'm wondering if I accidentally turned on nondestructive MIDI editing or something else that might be inflating the data, even though I can't see it (and it doesn't appear in the event lists).  Could anything else explain why moving MIDI events to different tracks would dramatically inflate the file size?

    tripecac.com
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Project file size inexplicably bigger 2011/10/05 11:56:29 (permalink)
    But, you had to create the additional tracks in order to move your Midi events from the original, single track yes?

    More tracks = more disc space.

    Try inserting 500 Midi tracks, save it and see what the file size is then.

    I don't think it's anything to do with compression algorithms, nondestructive Midi editing or anything like that. you have physically inserted extra tracks into Sonar and this action MUST result in a greater file size, unless I'm missing something painfully obvious.

    And again, I don't call an increase from 2Mb to 4Mb a dramatic inflation.

    Try it with a completely empty project - insert a couple of tracks. Save it and note the file size. Now add another 100 or more, save it and note the file size.

    I'd be totally gobsmacked if the 2 sizes were anything LIKE comparable.

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    Tripecac
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    Re:Project file size inexplicably bigger 2011/10/05 12:17:17 (permalink)

    But, you had to create the additional tracks in order to move your Midi events from the original, single track yes?

    Actually, sorry, but that assumption is incorrect; I didn't add any MIDI tracks. 

    My default project template has 8 MIDI drum tracks, all empty.  On the first day of this project, I recorded to the first drum track, leaving the other 7 drum tracks empty.  Yesterday, I simply moved notes from the first drum track to the empty drum tracks (e.g., toms to the "toms" track, snares to the "snare" track, etc.).  I do this on all my projects, which is why I have those 8 MIDI drum tracks in my default template.

    So the project has the same number of MIDI tracks before and after the drum splitting. 

    (I actually deleted some of the empty audio tracks, so the project has fewer overall tracks.)

    Other ideas?


    post edited by Tripecac - 2011/10/05 12:28:02

    tripecac.com
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    bitflipper
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    Re:Project file size inexplicably bigger 2011/10/05 13:08:54 (permalink)
    Even if you had created additional tracks, that alone should not account for 2MB increase. The additional storage for a track header is pretty small, about 6KB. You'd have to add hundreds of tracks to get a 2MB increase. Even after copying (not moving) MIDI data into another track you'd only be adding 20-50kb (depending on how dense the data is). A lot of automation could bring that up to 100KB or more, but that's still a long way from 2MB.

    I don't have an answer, but I suspect it's a quirk of how MIDI data is stored in the cwp file along with CW's OCD compulsion to never physically delete anything, ever.


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    Tripecac
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    Re:Project file size inexplicably bigger 2011/10/05 13:34:13 (permalink)
    Thanks, bitflipper! Your "never delete anything" comment gave me an idea:

    I turned non-destructive MIDI editing off, and now the file is a little smaller than it was the first day.

    Problem solved!

    tripecac.com
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