mwmcbroom
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 100
- Joined: 2016/03/23 15:25:46
- Status: offline
SOLVED: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
The title about sums it up. I created an audio track in the songs I've worked out, and it sounds good -- just like the individual MIDI instrument tracks (I've been using mostly Cakewalk's TTS-1, but I'm also using a couple of other soft synths). So I selected the Export . . . command from the File drop down and basically just gave the export a file name. I didn't change any of the parameters that were mentioned there. The Exported file sounds fine, except it's lost a lot of the lows. Mids and Highs are good, but the lows have basically taken a hike. I got the bright idea to delete all the MIDI tracks in SPlat, so that just the audio track was left, and then I was hoping I could save the file as a .wav file. But nope. SPlat only offers Cakewalk and MIDI file names. So I got nowhere with that. And now I've run out of options, so I thought I'd ask the forummind how it's done. Maybe artificially boost the lows so that the exported file will sound normal? Haven't tried that one yet.
post edited by mwmcbroom - 2018/03/31 17:45:02
|
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8424
- Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/06 17:34:59
(permalink)
First, you sound like you exported correctly as the default will work. But a few things you might want to change first. Also playing back the file in Sonar make sure you are always using your master buss and not going directly to your Audio interface. Then make sure the App you use to play the song outside of Sonar does't have any EQ or audio vodoo happening. .png)
|
57Gregy
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14404
- Joined: 2004/05/31 17:04:17
- Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/06 18:52:50
(permalink)
Right. You can't save an audio song as a .wav in SONAR (but the .cwp and .cwb folders will contain the .wav) , just as .cwp or .cwb files, but you can export the .wav to a folder of your choice.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/07 04:20:09
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby hockeyjx 2018/03/12 12:06:46
Normally, the exported audio will sound exactly the same as it did while you were playing it back within SONAR. Assuming, of course, that nothing external to the DAW is changing the sound.
Because SONAR will not alter the EQ during an export, the most common reason for differences is that the playback software you're using is altering the EQ.
That's not the only cause, but it's the only one that doesn't come down to user error. Here's some advice for eliminating user error:
1. Route all of your audio tracks to one bus, usually named "Master". Verify that all your tracks go there by muting the master bus during playback - everything should go silent. The output of the master bus (and nothing else) should go to the hardware outputs.
2. When exporting, make sure "Entire Mix" is selected, and all the checkboxes under "Mix Enables" are checked except "audible bounce" and "live input". However, if you do check "audible bounce" you'll be able to hear what's being exported and thus verify that it still sounds the same.
3. If you do the above and are still getting an audible difference, you can determine if the exported file is being altered by the following:
- add an audio track to your project
- import your exported file into that track
- either route that track to the hardware outputs, or route it to the master bus and disable any effects you might have on the master
- solo the track and play it back. If it doesn't sound different, then the problem is with the software and/or playback device you're using to audition the file. If it does sound different, revisit steps 1 and 2.
This is based on the assumption that you're comparing your export on the same speakers and in the same room where you'd been listening to your project. Just in case I'm assuming too much...
Mixes often sound different - sometimes drastically so - when you play them on other systems, e.g. a portable player or smartphone, or in your car. That's not the fault of your mix. It's just that different systems, playback devices and - most important - the various spaces in which you might be listening will always sound different. What sounds good on your studio monitors may sound like crap on your hi-fi or in your car. It might still sound OK, but it will definitely be different. But that's a topic for another thread.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8424
- Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/07 17:00:53
(permalink)
57Gregy
Right. You can't save an audio song as a .wav in SONAR (but the .cwp and .cwb folders will contain the .wav) , just as .cwp or .cwb files, but you can export the .wav to a folder of your choice.
Just to be clear.. CWP and CWB files contain only the project info -settings and the midi data. They do not contain any audio, the audio is found in a folder which is hopefully within your projects folder along side the CWP icon.
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/07 17:10:20
(permalink)
A CWB does contain audio, if the project contains audio. In fact, the file may be played like a wav. SONAR must first unpack a bundle into its project and audio files before using it.
|
mwmcbroom
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 100
- Joined: 2016/03/23 15:25:46
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/08 17:18:47
(permalink)
Thanks for all the responses, y'all. I'll give your suggestions a try.
As for the audio player, I selected one that I had hoped would be nuetral in the mix department -- Micrsoft Medai Player. My system is configured such that MMP is the default player for any .wav file. I don't recall a difference in sound quality when I've exported audio from other DAW software, like Band in a Box, for example. Its tunes sound the same when they get played through MMP.
Well, I'll delve into this a bit deeper. Thanks again for all the advice.
|
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8424
- Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/08 21:03:18
(permalink)
scook
A CWB does contain audio, if the project contains audio. In fact, the file may be played like a wav. SONAR must first unpack a bundle into its project and audio files before using it.
Whoops, my bad, I actually know zero about CWB files obviously. I tried one once but that was probably a midi only project. Yes WMP if normally is a good way to proof mixes. That's what I use and I've never found an issue. I think the sound enhancement issue is more to do with certain on board audio cards. I always use my interfaces for all things audio.
post edited by Cactus Music - 2018/03/08 22:41:30
|
DonM
Max Output Level: -34 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4129
- Joined: 2004/04/26 12:23:12
- Location: Pittsburgh
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/08 22:49:51
(permalink)
bitflipper
Normally, the exported audio will sound exactly the same as it did while you were playing it back within SONAR. Assuming, of course, that nothing external to the DAW is changing the sound.
Agree with Bit... one thing that I do to ensure that my mix is exactly like my project sound is: I. High Level View A. I'm a stem oriented guy, and tend to mix to stems (submixes) all of which collapse to a single two bus (Music we're talking here not film) B. I can select my Master Two Bus as my bounce source since everything I'm hearing is routing through that Master Bus. C. I don't export the audio - rather I bounce that Two Bus Mix to a track. Bounce to Track creates an audio file on your disk (and in your project) in exactly the same way File Export does. However - before I change Sample Rate / Word Length / etc .. I want to make sure that EVERYTHING is in my two bus. Once I have bounce my two bus mix to a track - I rewind the CTI, flip the phase of the bounced track and listen .... I should hear silence. With the rare plugin that generates random algorithms in its processing 99.99% I hear silence which proves that my Bounce/Export is a mathematical exact duplicate of the summed audio from the individual tracks. This is also an excellent way to ensure that nothing is improperly routed around a stem or not through the two bus. In Film Projects and some pop mixes I've done, there are well over 100 tracks. Every once in a while the move from production to post has an errant routing - this catches it every time. In my classes I call this null sum differential. It's the same process I use to check processing distinctions in plugins and mix choices since only the differential is revealed. Many years ago in this forum I had a detailed post with screen captures and the workflow detailed out. Thanks to Kev999 for finding the post -D
post edited by DonM - 2018/03/09 01:15:47
|
Kev999
Max Output Level: -36 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3922
- Joined: 2007/05/01 14:22:54
- Location: Victoria, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/09 00:04:56
(permalink)
SonarPlatinum∞(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)FractalDesign:DefineR5|i7-6850k@4.1GHz|16GB@2666MHz-DDR4|MSI:GamingProCarbonX99a|Matrox:M9148(x2)|UAD2solo(6.5.2)|W7Ult-x64-SP1
Audient:iD22+ASP800|KRK:VXT6|+various-outboard-gear|+guitars&basses, etc.
Having fun at work lately
|
DonM
Max Output Level: -34 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4129
- Joined: 2004/04/26 12:23:12
- Location: Pittsburgh
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/09 00:57:52
(permalink)
Kev999
DonM
...Many years ago in this forum I had a detailed posts with screen captures and the workflow detailed out. I couldn't find it...
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1418967
Was it this one?
OMG Ten Years Ago ... Cool, I searched and couldn't find it - It's been a long time since I've been a regular around here, - I'll have to learn how to search more better more better more :)
|
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2003/11/03 17:22:50
- Location: Boston, MA, USA
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/12 03:49:12
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby DonM 2018/03/12 10:03:51
An even more foolproof way is to export exactly one bus (whatever is your master). If you choose entire mix and for some reason you have multiple buses or tracks assigned to hardware outs, the mix will include everything including stuff routed to hardware outs that are potentially not heard (because they are muted externally).
Something like that could cause unwanted phase cancellation.
If you have exactly one destination bus for the audio the mix should sound identical to what SONAR is outputting. You can verify this by reimporting the mix to a new track and inverting the phase on that track. Playing the project should typically yield complete silence if its an exact copy.
|
mwmcbroom
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 100
- Joined: 2016/03/23 15:25:46
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/25 22:04:37
(permalink)
Hey guys, I'm sorry it took so long to respond to your comments. I've been real busy on a non-music related project these past couple of weeks and haven't had a chance to sit down with Sonar again until today. So I reread all your comments and then started to see if I could apply them to my song file. First thing I noticed, right off the bat, is I couldn't find anything called a Master Bus. I did find a Bus A and a Bus B. So I tried Bus A. It seemed to work OK, so I selected Bus A as TTS-1's output and then bounced my tracks through it for the mixdown.
I suspect I would find a Master bus if I were trying to mixdown audio tracks. But I'm not -- I'm mixing down MIDI tracks.
Sound fidelity wise, it didn't make any difference. The audio file that I listen to inside of Sonar is a substantially fuller sounding file than the audio file that is exported -- or the one that is recorded to a .wav file when I make a .cwb project (yeah, I hunted down the .wav file and found it). It almost sounds as if I'm playing the tune through an AM radio -- not quite that bad though.
I think I need to re-emphasize something here. My original tracks are MIDI. There is NO audio. In this one song I'm working on as an example, I'm using Cakewalk's TTS-1 synth to produce audio sounds, which I had originally been sending to my Interface but then I tried Bus A (since I couldn't find a Master bus), and I'm sending the TTS-1 tracks through the conversion process, I guess you'd say. (highlighted all the MIDI tracks and the TTS-1 tracks and bounced these to audio). For the Source Category I've selected Entire Mix, and for Preset, I've left it blank. All other settings I've left alone.
I have Sonar configured for 44.1k @ 16 bits depth. That shouldn't matter, should it?
I hope this makes things a bit clearer.
The last time I was really into doing all this was way back when I was using Pro Audio 9 on a Win98 platform. I don't recall doing anything like the above. I think what I was doing back then was running my PA9's MIDI's audio output to my Mackie 12 channel along with the audio outs from my other MIDI instruments and I mixed things down there, then sent the mix back to PA9 for final recording. I think. There were three or was it four? songs that were a mix of MIDI and audio (guitar and/or voice along with the MIDI instruments) on a few of the tunes.
I think I may have some of my old files backed up to some CDs somewhere. I had a catastrophic HD crash several years ago, and I think I lost all my PA9 work files. Anyway, if I can find one of the CDs, I can probaby figure out what I was doing back then.
|
SandlinJohn
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 188
- Joined: 2016/06/14 13:56:08
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/25 23:04:56
(permalink)
The Master Bus is one you create by adding a bus to your project and naming it Master. The point of the Master Bus is having that one, final bus where everything is going.
All the points still apply, however, without a Master Bus - though the routing of audio to the Master Bus should make trouble shooting easier. Regardless, try pulling your exported audio into an audio track in your otherwise fully MIDI mix. Invert the phase of that track and playback the full mix - if there are differences you'll hear them. If it is silence, your export is accurately representing the audio.
If the export is accurate, then the points about the playback should be explored. If your playback is through the same audio ports that SONAR is outputting to, you should have the same filters, but perhaps if SONAR is outputting through ASIO and Windows Media Player is using the usual DirectX drivers, then that might be where the audio is changing.
I will have to play with exporting a MIDI only project and then importing the resulting file and see if the SUM of the MIDI MIX and the inverted imported wav file cancel. Assuming no random functions in the FX, I'd expect everything to match up.
Sonar Platinum, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, Intel NUC micro-workstation with 5th Gen Intel i5-5250U, 16 GB RAM and 1.25 TB Storage, Yamaha MG10XU Mixer USB Interface, Yamaha HPH-MT8 Monitor Headphones, Yamaha MX-49 controller synth
|
SandlinJohn
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 188
- Joined: 2016/06/14 13:56:08
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/26 00:07:06
(permalink)
OK, silly question time...
It's been a while since I've worked with only MIDI and TTS. I have a synth connected that is my sound source and I record that to stereo audio. The way to save a MIDI + TTS mix is to bounce it to an audio track first, or at least that's the only way I've found that allows me to actually export audio to a file. Is this how you are creating your exported audio?
Something to be aware of when you bounce to track and then play everything back is you are adding the TTS playback over top of the audio track unless you SOLO only that new audio track. That WILL sound fuller because the playback of the MIDI will have a slight timing variation from the Bounced Audio. If you SOLO the Audio only track and listen, it will probably sound like your exported file.
Sonar Platinum, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, Intel NUC micro-workstation with 5th Gen Intel i5-5250U, 16 GB RAM and 1.25 TB Storage, Yamaha MG10XU Mixer USB Interface, Yamaha HPH-MT8 Monitor Headphones, Yamaha MX-49 controller synth
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/27 01:20:11
(permalink)
I usually freeze the track in order to render a soft synth. That's just more convenient than a bounce, even though technically it's doing the same thing.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
mwmcbroom
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 100
- Joined: 2016/03/23 15:25:46
- Status: offline
Re: SPlat: Exported Audio Doesn't Sound As Good
2018/03/31 17:44:05
(permalink)
Welp, I found the problem. It's Windows Media Player. Funny it doesn't do this with audio I've recorded with other DAW software -- at least I think it doesn't. I'll have to go back and give a listen now.
Anyway, I have another utility, called VLC Media Player that I normally use to watch movies and videos with, but it will playback just audio if I want. So I loaded up one of the "offending" files into VLC and it sounds identical to what it sounds like inside of Sonar. I even was a-b'ing them in quick succession, and could tell no difference, other than a bit of volume difference between the two platforms.
I'm glad to know this but I'm a little disturbed that WMP is messing with the audio. There are no specific settings in WMP that I can locate that allow for the adjustment of WMP's audio fidelity.
Oh well, VLC it is from now on. WMP has gotten the boot.
Incidentally, I can recommend VLC player for your video needs (as well as audio after today). It does a couple of things I like -- first it can play back just about any format of video files, and will play the files back smoothly -- as long as they've been recorded smoothly, and second, VLC Player has a volume control that takes your sound device's volume up to 200% of standard. I've run it up to 200% occasionally -- with no distortion, just more volume.
|