SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math?

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SteveStrummerUK
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/09 13:32:33 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: John

How many Angles dance on the head of a pin? I'm sure you guys have an answer.

LOL - now I'm really confused by all this data and equations stuff - 'tis a long long time since I did anything like this at school!

I always thought 'Do the Math' was dancing to When a Child is Born

 Music:     The Coffee House BandVeRy MeTaL

#61
kwgm
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/09 13:41:27 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: dreamkeeper

Yeah, I'm familiar with the hidden or implicit bit. If I'm understanding correctly, the method you described requires that the same (or at least nearly the same in the case when lower bits are lost) value can be represented by two different binary numbers, yes? But that's not the case with IEEE floats. Only numbers close to the range boundaries can be almost redundant, for example:

0-01111101-11111111111111111111111 = 0.49999997
and
0-01111110-00000000000000000000000 = 0.5

I don't see any way to get from the 1st to the 2nd by shifting - hidden bit or not. And again, the further you get away from the range boundaries, the bigger the smallest-possible difference between two IEEE numbers with different exponents. I guess the answer is "42"...


Every computer engineer has to sit through a course in number theory and calculate the error in different floating point encoding schemes, and I recall some very dry days in graduate school when I examined specific floating point emulation algorithms in the Motorola 68000 library in great detail, but that part of my memory hasn't had a refresh cycle in almost 30 years. I'm not going to look this up, because it doesn't really matter, but what I do recall is that most 32-bit systems use a 23/24bit mantissa, and undergo something called "Von Neumann rounding" at the 23/24bit cusp. This 32-bit representation of FLOAT is or should I say, was, very commonly used for over 20 years, afaik. All that might have changed in the late 1990s when Microsoft took the lead in OS design, I don't know -- by then I worried little about the minutia of OS implementation.

Boiled down to simple English, the round-off error in a typical 32-bit floating point operation has an error that going to be in the neighborhood of 1 part in 4 million, which is a very small and negligible error in most cases. So, it's an interesting thought problem, but not relevant to your day-to-day work.



--kwgm
#62
evansmalley
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/09 16:16:49 (permalink)
How many Angles dance on the head of a pin?


probably infinite angles theoretically but I think Angels don't really obsess over math being full of joy and higher knowledge- and we could learn something there probably... but they can learn dancing from us too, because we are having the body.

I do think that math doesn't really sound like music. I've scrutinized the @#%* out of it and I do think the bottom line is that waves behave (and sound) differently than rounded-off equations. People will say (we're in love) that such calculations are far beneath the human ability to perceive theoretically. But I think that musical waves really do sound different than all this theoretical blah blah blah. If you've ever been in an excellent analog signal festival and A/B'd it with a calculation that nearly to the nearest rounding-off point represents it- I hear it. The difference. It's a world apart.

But it doesn't really matter because we're stuck with digital- for now. So let's enjoy cutting splicing editing and all other kinds of cover-yur-butt stuff until we can really create beauty in music. Real beauty can make the angels cry even over the phone... it's all we can offer.
#63
John
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/09 16:28:26 (permalink)

probably infinite angles theoretically but I think Angels don't really obsess over math being full of joy and higher knowledge- and we could learn something there probably... but they can learn dancing from us too, because we are having the body.

I do think that math doesn't really sound like music. I've scrutinized the @#%* out of it and I do think the bottom line is that waves behave (and sound) differently than rounded-off equations. People will say (we're in love) that such calculations are far beneath the human ability to perceive theoretically. But I think that musical waves really do sound different than all this theoretical blah blah blah. If you've ever been in an excellent analog signal festival and A/B'd it with a calculation that nearly to the nearest rounding-off point represents it- I hear it. The difference. It's a world apart.

But it doesn't really matter because we're stuck with digital- for now. So let's enjoy cutting splicing editing and all other kinds of cover-yur-butt stuff until we can really create beauty in music. Real beauty can make the angels cry even over the phone... it's all we can offer.

Thats one way to think about it. But I wonder what some musicians thought when Edison invented the Phonograph? It seems to me there is the same old view of anything new. I for one am fully in the digital world and it would take an army to get me back to analog. Why not do it right and go pre solid state and pre transistor. Those were fun times.

Best
John
#64
evansmalley
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/09 16:48:58 (permalink)
hey John-
How about optically stored analog? with a resolution in the realm of Angstroms instead of kilohertz? Quality audio is just a technical discovery away- there is room for improvement.

Just more inane babbling... none of this stuff really matters- like you say- it's digital now...

so let's elect Mccain! woo hoo!
what's wrong with the status quo anyway?

nah seriously you have a point- I'm just not at all satisfied with digital sound- but the editing is sweet!
#65
evansmalley
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/09 18:29:05 (permalink)
Just for the record I am very much for Obama- that was a joke! And I'm for better ways to record music. We're just living in the dark ages and there are many good technical discoveries yet to be created. I have always thought that sampling an analog wave is a functional but primitive representation of it. The wave must be a wave and must resonate, have interference patterns, sympathetic vibrations, resonances, harmonizations, etc- according to the nature of natural waves in air. And it would be good to find a way to record that with good fidelity, not with rust on plastic that is magnetized.

And all the math can be long forgotten. And the Angels will sing along.

But that's probably years away. So I love Sonar!!! It's great in the real world!
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/10 08:26:19 (permalink)
For those of you who haven't read the white paper that Ron wrote many years ago I suggest you take a look at it.

Also look through the section at the bottom of this link for some more info:
http://www.cakewalk.com/x64/default.asp

It covers many of the details in this thread.


Noel Borthwick
Senior Manager Audio Core, BandLab
My Blog, Twitter, BandLab Profile
#67
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/10 09:24:11 (permalink)
Thanks Noel. That was a good read.

Can someone define the term "double precision"?

thanks,
mike
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hv
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/10 09:48:33 (permalink)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_precision

A lot of folks don't seem to realize that 32-bit float format is the minimum precision required to handle 24-bit audio coming from an converter in fixed format. Because it's mantissa contains exactly the right number of bits to store a 0db sample... the 8 exponent bits being unused in that case. If converters ever get greater than 24-bit resolution, 32-bit floats would be inadequate.

Howard
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/10 10:01:39 (permalink)
Thanks hv!
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dreamkeeper
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RE: SOS doesn't like the sound of floating point math? 2008/09/10 15:17:48 (permalink)
OK, I've done some homework and also followed the links provided (thanks ). I'm slowly getting the drift where I went wrong with my observations - though it's not totally clear to me yet...

First off, I was confusing value range with dynamic range. Obviously the range of possible sample values (signal level) is much larger for floats than for fixed-point with the same resolution. However, the quantisation noise and thus dynamic range is determined by the precision only - and that's 24bit for a 32bit float. The precision is the number of digits of the significand, including the implicit bit, but without the sign bit (according to Goldberg).

When summing two floats, the accuracy of the result is determined by the difference of the values. For each 6dB difference, there will be 1 bit from the smaller value lost - provided the result isn't held for further calculations in the FPU registers. The absolute value doesn't matter because floats provide the full precision over the whole range. So this means that summing two signals with a difference of ~48dB will merely yield the resolution of an audio CD - 16bit - with regard to the smaller signal. For 64bit summing this would be ~222dB - which provides either much more room to play with or much higher accuracy than 16bit.

A difference of 48dB between sample values (not gain!) doesn't sound very much to me. Taking track and bus gains into account, much higher differences can occur all the time. In my book that makes 64bit mixing almost mandatory. OTOH, multiple tracks/buses going to one destination bus are probably summed in one swoop in the FPU (80bit) anyway, and only the result will be rounded to fit into either 32 or 64 bit. For any further processing the lost bits may or may not make an audible difference.

Once again: a mere 6dB difference and the least significant bit of the smaller value will be lost. This is because each 6dB the exponent increments/decrements, and so the significand of the smaller value needs to be shifted right before summing (yeah, it works when shifting with the implicit bit - which yields a non-normalised number for the moment) to align the exponents. Hence the LSB falls off the grid when the result is rounded (dithered?) and normalised again after the operation.

My apologies for boring you folks . I mostly needed to write it down for myself - so I figured, why not littering the forum with it, hehe!

werner

"... must've been another of my dreams ..."
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