albert_kawmi
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SPDIF cables
Having an annoying problem using the digital output of my VG99 guitar multifx going into the digital input of yamaha 01x mixer. At first I just used a standard audio cable and this was creating audible clicks (not random clicks/pops, but kind of in a certain pattern dying away slowly).
I got hold of a "digital audio cable" and this has significantly quietened the clicks, but they are still there!
I am not sure of the specs for this cable but I am surprised that it hasn't eliminated the problem. It is a short 1m run.
I don't really mind going D/A-A/D with the analogue outputs but using the SPDIF saves me two extra instruments inputs on the mixer.
Any ideas?
http://www.myspace.com/nevadabase Pentium Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz, 2GB RAM, 460GB Hard disk(s) Windows XP Home (32-bit), Sonar 7 Producer Yamaha 01X, i88X mLAN audio interface
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Jessie Sammler
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/02 17:48:46
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I've never encountered such a problem myself. A good-quality 75-ohm cable for digital audio or composite video shouldn't introduce issues like that. What kind of cable to you have now?
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RRabbi
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/02 18:37:05
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Do you need to sync up the wordclocks for both devices? If you are using SPDIF then that means you are using two digital devices at the same time. I found I had clicks and pops syncing my MOTU 828 MkII and Behringer ADA8000 when I forgot to sync the wordclocks using a standard BNC cable.
As far as SPDIF goes... I use a Monster Cable "Digital Coax" cable, that is THX certified... works fine.
Dave
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ohhey
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/02 20:52:13
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ORIGINAL: albert_kawmi
Having an annoying problem using the digital output of my VG99 guitar multifx going into the digital input of yamaha 01x mixer. At first I just used a standard audio cable and this was creating audible clicks (not random clicks/pops, but kind of in a certain pattern dying away slowly).
I got hold of a "digital audio cable" and this has significantly quietened the clicks, but they are still there!
I am not sure of the specs for this cable but I am surprised that it hasn't eliminated the problem. It is a short 1m run.
I don't really mind going D/A-A/D with the analogue outputs but using the SPDIF saves me two extra instruments inputs on the mixer.
Any ideas?
One problem with all digital audio connections (like SPDIF) is that they are single direction, so the output device has to be the master clock for the entire system if that's all you have connected (not good). I'm sure the clock in your 01X is far better then the one in the VG99. The bad news ? The VG99 has no clock input of any kind (wordclock or SPDIF in) so there is no way to have the 01X be the master clock, I would go analog.
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albert_kawmi
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/03 09:35:59
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Digital clocking issues...That's what I was afraid of. Oh well, analogue it is.
Does this make the digital inputs of my 01X completely useless??? Why even have it?
Bah humbug.
http://www.myspace.com/nevadabase Pentium Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz, 2GB RAM, 460GB Hard disk(s) Windows XP Home (32-bit), Sonar 7 Producer Yamaha 01X, i88X mLAN audio interface
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ohhey
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/03 09:57:55
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ORIGINAL: albert_kawmi
Digital clocking issues...That's what I was afraid of. Oh well, analogue it is.
Does this make the digital inputs of my 01X completely useless??? Why even have it?
Bah humbug.
It's not the 01Xs fault, it's the VG99 that doesn't have a clock input. In theory you could set the 01X to get clock from SPDIF but you run the risk of degrading the audio of the entire system. The 01X has an SPDIF out but the VG99 has no SPDIF in so that's why you can have it get clock from the 01X. I try to avoid digital wires if I can for a number of reasons. 1) Both devices have to operate at the same sample rate, 2) No error checking or correction is possible, you can't even measure how many there are. 3) Complicates setup and adds more then one point of failure. 4) Expensive when you get to more then two devices because you really need a house clock at that point. 5) makes sample rate changes difficult in some cases. 6) Can't patch any analog devices inline. 7) Devices always seem to be missing a plug or have the wrong one. 8) I'm always missing the cable I need or it's too short. 
post edited by ohhey - 2007/12/03 10:59:12
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Jessie Sammler
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/08 01:25:21
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You've convinced me, Frank. I'm leaving digital interconnects for the home theater stuff, at least until I have some higher-end gear and a clue what I'm doing in the DAW world. For the first time in a long time, I'm glad I didn't get the Delta 66 instead of the Delta 44.
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Lanceindastudio
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/08 05:27:16
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Well my only thing I use digitally is the spdif out from my preamp to spdif in of my mia midi sound card for the mic.
There is no problem there. It is fine, sounds great. The sound would have to be converted through the sound card anyway, so I decided to have the signal converted in the preamp as to avoid an extra analog cable. Having a tube preamp, I already have a cable from the mic into the mic power supply, and then an xlr from power supply to preamp, so avoiding a third analog cable seems Ideal to me.
Asus P8Z77-V LE PLUS Motherboard i7 3770k CPU 32 gigs RAM Presonus AudioBox iTwo Windows 10 64 bit, SONAR PLATINUM 64 bit Lots of plugins and softsynths and one shot samples, loops Gauge ECM-87, MCA SP-1, Alesis AM51 Presonus Eureka Mackie HR824's and matching subwoofer
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losguy
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/09 01:06:04
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Some of us (like me) have a digital-only soundcard, so we don't really have a choice. Not that it's a problem, really.
In my case, it's a Terratec EWS 88D (ADAT and S/PDIF I/O only). It's the clock master and the digital mixer (Fostex VM-200) is the slave. The A/D/A/ conversion all happens "outboard" in the mixer. So in that sense, the situation is a lot like Lance's.
Frank (ohhey) is right about having to be careful with the sample rate. The project, card, and mixer have to match, or bad things happen. So, I find myself not changing the rate much (or at all).
At some point I may switch to a Firewire box like the TC Konnekt 24. With a single digital box, it may be easier to switch rates on-the-fly under computer control.
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Shadow of The Wind
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/09 07:48:22
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One comment on the cables: It is important to use special cables!
The cables have to have the correct impedance, i.e. 75 Ohms. Antenna cables and video cables have the correct impedance for that purpose. If you use cables having different impedances, the electric pulses are being partially (smaller amplitude) reflected on either end, i.e. they run around between the two devices and interfere with the new data. If these reflections are strong enough, the data will be corrupted.
Wilko
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Jessie Sammler
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/09 08:19:37
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Philip
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/09 23:12:56
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I'm questioning my own cable integrity: random pops occurring ... methinks from my soundcard to the monitors (AKA: stereo receiver)
Besides Shadow's and Jessie's suggestions, I'm wondering if my 'cheap' cables invite static/corruption via coiling, bunching, etc. of these cables.
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Shadow of The Wind
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/10 02:11:38
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Philip,
Are you using the digital output of your soundcard? Could you connect headphones directly to the card? I somehow doubt that it is the cable. Cheap cables usually have poor mechanical properties and maybe higher loss and poor shielding. However, that would not explain random pops. Can you correlate the pops with something else (computer checking for new email, fridge starts compressor etc.)?
Wilko
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Jim Roseberry
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/10 05:56:11
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Setup the Yamaha O1x to look for clock at its S/PDIF input... and the clicks will be gone.
Any time you merge digital audio streams... they have to share a common clock or you'll hear ticks/pops.
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albert_kawmi
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/10 10:04:37
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yeah, that was the solution: i set the 01X to get the clock from the SPDIF input. this does mean that my VG99 is now clock master for the whole system (01X mixer, i88X i/o and the DAW)! no problems yet, so far...
http://www.myspace.com/nevadabase Pentium Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz, 2GB RAM, 460GB Hard disk(s) Windows XP Home (32-bit), Sonar 7 Producer Yamaha 01X, i88X mLAN audio interface
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ohhey
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/10 10:37:32
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ORIGINAL: albert_kawmi
yeah, that was the solution: i set the 01X to get the clock from the SPDIF input. this does mean that my VG99 is now clock master for the whole system (01X mixer, i88X i/o and the DAW)! no problems yet, so far...
This is why studios with lots of digital connects have a house clock so they are not forced to use the ones in guitar effects. The problem with the VG99 is that there is no input for clock or anything that has clock. Some sound cards have a built in resampler that can keep the device happly and even change the sample rate before it mixes with the rest of the system but this is rare.
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Philip
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RE: SPDIF cables
2007/12/11 01:02:58
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Thanks Shadow; I don't use SPDIF at this time. I never noticed the random pops till I got my sensitive headset (AKG 701) for mixing. But you've enlightened me greatly. I'll search for other factors, programs running, etc.
post edited by Philip - 2007/12/11 01:16:21
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blave
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RE: SPDIF cables
2008/02/07 01:31:07
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Resurrecting this thread only in the hope of adding a bit more data to the mix (pun intended I guess). I have a VG-99, and had no issues in connecting it to my Tascam US-428 via the SPDIF at all. However, I just upgraded the '428 to a Tascam FW-1082, and tonight I was messing around with the VG-99 and the 1082 via SPDIF and - suddenly I'm in click city. Random little staticky things. But, even before reading this thread I decided to try having the 1082 let the VG-99 be Master Clock, and <poof> the clicks are gone. But, in more fiddling about I decided to return the 1082's clock to "internal" and then progressively upped its sample rate from 44.1 (which the VG-99 is fixed at) up to 96 just for S's and G's. With each higher clock, the clicks got more rapid, and more rhythmic in a way which I presume are sort of harmonic interactions between the mismatched clocks. That (to me anyway) circumstantially points at a slight mismatch at 44.1 between the 1082 and VG99. Even at 44.1, the 1082's Clock LED flashes slowly, which I *think* (based on something the manual says) is an undocumented feature of the 1082 that indicates a clock mismatch between it and whatever's connected to it. At any rate, for now anyway I can get by with the VG being the master clock, at least when I'm using it through the 1082. It (the VG) is a marvelous toy by the way. I just finished a tune with a friend where, other than the vox and drums (a loop), everything is VG - acoustic, steel, lead, and bass guitars along with a effecty little highlight here and there. You'd never know that from listening to the song. Closing comment: the quality of the cable connecting the SPDIF Out and In has nothing to do with the clicks/pops. You'd have to have a pretty bad cable to mess with the digital signal, at least for short distances. This is why I roll my eyes whenever I see a Super High Quality 3-foot HDMI cable for fifty bucks by a certain well-known cable manufacturer - a five dollar cable will do just as well unless it's got a broken wire in it somewhere. Dave Blevins
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ohhey
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RE: SPDIF cables
2008/02/07 09:46:34
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ORIGINAL: blave
Resurrecting this thread only in the hope of adding a bit more data to the mix (pun intended I guess).
I have a VG-99, and had no issues in connecting it to my Tascam US-428 via the SPDIF at all. However, I just upgraded the '428 to a Tascam FW-1082, and tonight I was messing around with the VG-99 and the 1082 via SPDIF and - suddenly I'm in click city. Random little staticky things. But, even before reading this thread I decided to try having the 1082 let the VG-99 be Master Clock, and <poof> the clicks are gone.
But, in more fiddling about I decided to return the 1082's clock to "internal" and then progressively upped its sample rate from 44.1 (which the VG-99 is fixed at) up to 96 just for S's and G's. With each higher clock, the clicks got more rapid, and more rhythmic in a way which I presume are sort of harmonic interactions between the mismatched clocks. That (to me anyway) circumstantially points at a slight mismatch at 44.1 between the 1082 and VG99.
Even at 44.1, the 1082's Clock LED flashes slowly, which I *think* (based on something the manual says) is an undocumented feature of the 1082 that indicates a clock mismatch between it and whatever's connected to it.
At any rate, for now anyway I can get by with the VG being the master clock, at least when I'm using it through the 1082.
It (the VG) is a marvelous toy by the way. I just finished a tune with a friend where, other than the vox and drums (a loop), everything is VG - acoustic, steel, lead, and bass guitars along with a effecty little highlight here and there. You'd never know that from listening to the song.
Closing comment: the quality of the cable connecting the SPDIF Out and In has nothing to do with the clicks/pops. You'd have to have a pretty bad cable to mess with the digital signal, at least for short distances. This is why I roll my eyes whenever I see a Super High Quality 3-foot HDMI cable for fifty bucks by a certain well-known cable manufacturer - a five dollar cable will do just as well unless it's got a broken wire in it somewhere.
Dave Blevins
You can't change sample rates when using a digital connection this way. You can only work at the same rate the device supports and is set to. Also, because SPDIF (and all other digital audio interfaces) are single direction only you MUST let the VG be the sample rate clock source for the entire system when it's connected and used. Now, if the VG had some way to get clock from the FW-1082 then you could change sample rates and the VG would follow (if it could do that sample rate). But since it doesn't have any digital inputs you can't. So any time you have the VG connected you need to set the FW-1082 to external clock from the SPDIF input.
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blave
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RE: SPDIF cables
2008/02/07 12:03:07
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Yes I know the rates have to match (duh). It was just an experiment (that's what the "just for S's and G's" means), and I found it interesting that I seemed to get a "beating" popping sound as I raised the 1082's rate.
I also understand that SPDIF is unidirectional and that the VG has to be Master Blaster when I'm using it with the FW1082. I was just trying to add to the knowledge base here, because I googled "1082 clicks" or something like that and got this thread as a hit.
What I don't understand is why this worked fine with the US428. I don't have the manual handy, but perhaps it always takes the clock from an external source when the latter is enabled.
Dave.
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losguy
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RE: SPDIF cables
2008/02/07 13:29:23
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ORIGINAL: blave
What I don't understand is why this worked fine with the US428. I don't have the manual handy, but perhaps it always takes the clock from an external source when the latter is enabled.
Yes, this is most likely the case.
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ohhey
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RE: SPDIF cables
2008/02/07 13:46:15
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ORIGINAL: blave
Yes I know the rates have to match (duh). It was just an experiment (that's what the "just for S's and G's" means), and I found it interesting that I seemed to get a "beating" popping sound as I raised the 1082's rate.
I also understand that SPDIF is unidirectional and that the VG has to be Master Blaster when I'm using it with the FW1082. I was just trying to add to the knowledge base here, because I googled "1082 clicks" or something like that and got this thread as a hit.
What I don't understand is why this worked fine with the US428. I don't have the manual handy, but perhaps it always takes the clock from an external source when the latter is enabled.
Dave.
Yeah.. the US428 may autoswitch to the external clock when it detects it there.. if I had designed it that's what I would have done to make it "customer proof" This is one of those exceptions to the rule or automatic things that causes so much confusion. Like when folks have only used an internal card that autoswitches sample rates and can't understand why the USB sound interface won't play their old projects or Sonar thinks the interface is bad. Meanwhile the RME Fireface folks are confused because theirs works just fine and it's external.. Or one guy says you have to use the same sample rate when using SPDIF and the guy with the Lynx Two card is confused because he does it all the time not remembering that the Lynx card has a special feature to resampleing on the fly that other cards don't have... etc etc.. Bottom line is that digital interfaces require a lot more knowledge of your gear and the technology then an analog interface. Most of the time analog just works. Yeah.. you might have the level or impedance wrong but you still get some sound and no #@!$%^& clicks.
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