stratcat33511
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Sampling and DimPro and stuff
Can I create a sample and throw it into DimPro ? HOW? Should it be a wave ? Should I multi sample How do I sample ? How do I multisample Maybe better for another thread in techniques, eh ? http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1378194
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AT
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/05 00:09:23
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If it is longer than 3000 samples (this # from memory) it will be treated like a sample, so multisampling is probably the way to go for "natural" sounds.
DimPro will take a few differerent wave formats, but good ole WAV files would probably be best.
You control the hi/lo notes (and hense multisample ranges) from SFZ - open some up with a note pad and you'll get a model to follow for specific instruments.
Sampling itself - well, that is an entire subject. You basically record a single note of any instrument and then crop and trim it in an audio editor (Sound Forge would be my fav, tho you could use SONAR etc.). You then assign it across the keyboard using SFZ.
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kwgm
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/05 04:16:54
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ORIGINAL: stratcat33511
Can I create a sample and throw it into DimPro ?
HOW?
Should it be a wave ?
Should I multi sample
How do I sample ? How do I multisample
Maybe better for another thread in techniques, eh ?
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1378194
Depends what you want to sample -- if you want to make musical instruments, like a new horn, then you want to a collection of samples, each one at different notes over the range of the instrument (keyboards are a lot of work!). I normally use 2 or 3 tones per octave, which are spread at intervals of a 4th or 5th. The pro sets generally come at 4 samples per octave, ie, at intervals of 3 semitones, for instance, the notes C, Eb, Gb, and A. Say you want to sample a friends' synth -- you record these notes from C1 or C2 up to maybe C8. I do this all in a single file, and then split them into individual files in Cool Edit. But, before that, you need to make design decisions, like do you want your sample to be mono or stereo, and 16-bit or 24-bit? You need to normalize your wave files, meaning, you want them all at the same loudness, and you want them at a level where they'll all sound good. For some instruments, you get a different tone at different loudness, so you need samples a different dynamic levels for each note. Good pianos come with samples at 3 or 4 levels. When you do this for a while, you find that each instrument has its own set of resonant frequencies, around which samples sound louder. This too must be adjusted in the normalization process. You'll need a good audio editor for this. I use an old copy of Cool Edit Pro that has some convenient features to automatically break a long sample file (with tones of many notes) into individual sample files. Then I'll use a couple of macros to covert each sample to 16-bit audio, perhaps stereo to mono, and normalize the gain to around -3db. Using these, I can process a collection of samples in a relatively short time period, but it's boring work, so at best, I'm good for only a few sample sets a day. There's details I left out -- for instance, you also need to think about envelops, based on the kind of attack, decay and sustain your instrument has. Samples requiring a long, steady sustain (like an organ or string ensemble) need looped samples, which require a little skill to get right, and an editor that supports loop points. Some types of samples, may require a long decaying tail. There's an art to making a good set of samples, and you can hear the difference. Most people don't have the skills, software, or that patience, which is why there are so many freely available sound fonts that are not worth downloading. Rapture and Dim Pro are great programs for building Voices out of homemade samples, and I use these two with my samples to great effect. You also can buy your samples on the web, and build your own instruments from them. For instance, I purchased a nice collection of Korg Triton samples and have made a few pads from these samples using Rapture. Hope you found this info useful. Good luck.
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stratcat33511
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/05 08:36:53
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I want to sample my Oberheim, the fattest synth on the planet!
I'd like to create and sample my own wine glass harmonica
I wanna sample my acoustics to blend with the ones DimPro comes with
I'd like to sample my own backup voices; aahhs oohs etc
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yungxcraven
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/05 10:44:16
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Yes, you can pull a wave sample into Dim, but Dropzone has more advantages. 
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lawapa
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/05 20:48:13
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The guy who wrote Cakewalk synths book also did one called Sample This. Simon Cann.
Everything you want to do is not only do able but I've done it myself.
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DaveClark
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/06 00:18:37
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Greetings Ed (stratcat33511) and the rest, An extremely practical guide to making samples, practically a step-by-step set of instructions which contains what I think is excellent advice, free and on-line is: Sampling Tips For example --- to show the value of this article --- Kurt (kwgm) mentioned normalization. Prior to normalization, however, one may need to do some compression; otherwise normalization may not have the intended effect. When sampling my (cheap) guitar, the loudest notes, plucked at high velocity, had horrifically high peaks with very little energy in them. Normalization alone would have been disastrous. I have no doubt that Kurt knows this and was avoiding writing an article himself! Thankfully someone else has done that already. Sampling well requires quite bit of thought and work to get things right. And each new case is like learning a new instrument. I must confess --- again with the guitar --- I didn't have enough time so shoved them through an amp simulator. I'm really going to have to redo them. With my own sample generators, I often test out the various "velocities" before running scripts to create them all, precisely to anticipate problems and minimize the corrective work. The point here is that if you don't think and plan, you'll end up doing a LOT (maybe even LOT*LOT) more corrective work than you need to. Regards, Dave Clark
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stratcat33511
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/06 08:43:14
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AT,kwgm,Larry,Dave, yungx
AWESOME-exactly what I was looking for !
You guys Rock
This will make the elbow healing ( almost ) bearable,.
I'll have plenty of time ( 2 months ) to plan and think and do(or re-do)
Going into the Orthopedic surgeon today !
Thanks again !
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stratcat33511
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/06 08:52:59
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ORIGINAL: AT
If it is longer than 3000 samples (this # from memory) it will be treated like a sample, so multisampling is probably the way to go for "natural" sounds.
DimPro will take a few differerent wave formats, but good ole WAV files would probably be best.
You control the hi/lo notes (and hense multisample ranges) from SFZ - open some up with a note pad and you'll get a model to follow for specific instruments.
Sampling itself - well, that is an entire subject. You basically record a single note of any instrument and then crop and trim it in an audio editor (Sound Forge would be my fav, tho you could use SONAR etc.). You then assign it across the keyboard using SFZ.
3000 samples ? Multisampling ? SFZ ? - how would that work with DimPro ? how would that work with , say, Sampletank or the NNXT ? Assigning samples across the keyboard: in regards to the Oberheim samples this is CRITICAL! 4-5 samples per octave ? is this what multisampling is all about ? then write an SFZ file to tell it how to use the samples ?
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stratcat33511
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/06 09:52:12
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And what sample rate / bit depth do I use ?
24/44.1K ok ?
48/96K any better , then SRC the sample ?
I'd rather keep it at or close to what I use now (24/44.1K or 24/48K)
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lawapa
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/06 21:00:41
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A sample that has 3000 samples or less is treated as a wave table. For what you want to do it's not in the mix so to speak but cool to know how later on when you decide to do one. For starters I'd do a capture at 24/48. Then dither down to 16/44.1 as you process to the end set. You can use higher sample rates and bit rates but be aware that you gain so little with a set you sequence it's almost not worth the CPU strain to do so. This is debate-able of course and there will be those who will wish to say other wise but in a mix with all your other instruments the subtle nuances you capture at the higher rate will get lost in the mix. I would just keep it simple at first and then amp up the sets as You gain confidence. Assigning samples across the keyboard: in regards to the Oberheim samples this is CRITICAL!
4-5 samples per octave ? is this what multisampling is all about ? The best way to determine how many samples per octave is to sample every octave build a start and listen carefully to the stretch. If you don't like the sound after a few notes away from the root you can always add more notes. The Oberhiem is different from a acoustic instrument and should not require a note for note sampling but you ear will make that call if you experiment. Also when you sample leave all effects off and do a dry as dust capture so the set can be effected later on. Any thing you do to a set is a pain to undo so leave yourself plenty of room to process as audio after you sequence. This type of capture gives you the most options as a end product.
post edited by lawapa - 2008/05/06 21:30:58
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DaveClark
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/07 01:26:07
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Hi Ed, First, a couple of comments about one of the silliest debates in audio, the sampling rate debate. The real cons of going to 96,000 samples/sec don't have anything to do with bats or the limitations of human hearing. They have to do with the obviously large size of the files and the hit on system performance that lawapa mentioned and you surely are aware of. Only with the Q6600 have I seen anything that might barely be acceptable for real-time 96/24 for a few tracks. Another factor is 96,000-challenged software such as Rapture and DPro. The industry isn't really 96,000 friendly. The real pros of going to 96,000 samples/sec don't have anything to do with "better sound" or capturing nuances. They have to do with redundancy of information, therefore robustness against extensive numerical processing. Another factor is that limitations on filter design are not nearly as restrictive (until the last step...), but it would take far too long to explain this. --------------------------- So, if you're just mixing sounds that don't have a lot of processing done to them (not a lot of plugins), or you are working in genres like metal that use a lot of distortion anyway, or if you want smaller files and a usable system, or some other reason beyond thinking that the human audible range should be the deciding factor, then you probably should stick with the lower rates. However, if you are doing a LOT of processing and you want the sound quality to be maintained as much as possible, then 96,000 samples/sec will do a better job as long as you steer clear of Rapture, DPro version 1.2, and other 96,000-challenged plugins. Working at 96/24 means all the way through exporting the final mix at 96/24, then using a good constant-rate converter to downsample (not SONAR). This is a HUGE commitment, not something to be taken lightly. It's unfortunate that vendors such as Cakewalk make 96/24 even more difficult rather than easier. I would not recommend working at 48,000 samples/sec and converting to 44,100 samples/sec as lawapa suggested. I would recommend working at whatever the final rate is. There is a very slight advantage of doing what lawapa suggested, but the downside is that the majority of software converters are not good enough to do this reliably at very high quality. (The reason is that they are using the wrong type of converter, namely one that was designed for pitch-bending and so on, not constant-rate conversions.) On Edit: IMO, working at 96,000 samples/sec IS worth the risk; working at 48,000 is not. --------------------------- In short, it's a personal decision --- no right or wrong answer. It is, however, important to make that personal decision for the *right reasons*, and not based on some audio myth or misunderstanding out there on the Internet. Because it's a personal decision, it's hard to get advice as to what to do. It's like asking, "Should I look to marry someone like Susie, or someone like Katie?" For me, it has been a case-by-case decision; in other words, the reasons change depending on the project, instrument, etc. It's like being married to Susie, then to Katie, then back to Susie,.... Perhaps I should work out a schedule! Regards, Dave Clark
post edited by DaveClark - 2008/05/07 01:50:55
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stratcat33511
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RE: Sampling and DimPro and stuff
2008/05/07 18:50:12
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Larry, Dave..... thank you!
Great responses!
Will do !
I have 3 weeks of rehab and I'll be able to slam a guitar again
Lots of 24./44 sampling to do in that time
( and its not for DimPro or Rapture anyways!)
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