Satriani suing cold play, what do you think

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2009/01/06 22:13:24 (permalink)

Satriani suing cold play, what do you think

Check this video from 0:49 to 1:17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMcjXo8ZuqE

compare that to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3mYc1m3lsM

Cold play says “If there are any similarities between our two pieces of music, they are entirely coincidental, and just as surprising to us as to him."

And Cold Play's song was the number two song in 2008, I read that somewhere anyways...

I think Satriani has a good case. I wonder what a case like that is worth.

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    esmail1
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/06 23:05:25 (permalink)
    I am definately not on Joe's side on this one. Basically he is trying to sue for a very short melodic phrase, indicating that Coldplay ripped it off...

    well, it is a very common musical phrase to begin with...secondly, Joe's song is pretty weak imo and by the time you get to that common musical phrase, it is merely his guitar playing the first few notes of it.

    The Coldplay song is an entire piece built on a similar phrase of the first few notes, but it goes well beyond what Joe did with his guitar lead.

    What I am trying to say is, it is a good thing Beethoven or Mozart were not alive today...or they would be suing everyone.

    Most music has common phrases that we unconsciously borrow from our intuition... a direct rip like "My Sweet Lord" / "She's So Fine" is one thing to sue over...

    but when you get down to trying to sue over a few musical notes, in a COMPLETELY unrelated and dissimilar song and style of music.....well it is safe to say that Joe is reaching big time on that one.



    post edited by esmail1 - 2009/01/06 23:12:00
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    Jessie Sammler
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/06 23:53:38 (permalink)
    I disagree. There's a pretty good argument for Joe's side here, and it doesn't really matter if his song is "weak" or isn't as commercially successful as Coldplay's.

    Frankly, I think more artists should sue Coldplay. Starting with U2, of course.
    #3
    Marah Mag
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 00:47:04 (permalink)
    A month or so ago I posted a link to a YouTube vid where someone laid the Cold Play and the Satriani tracks on top of each other, and they fit together almost like they were designed that way. I don't know if they had to change the tempo or key of one or both tracks (I'm not familiar with either the original CP or JS tracks) to get em to sync in tempo and key but they matched like outtakes of each other.

    The video seems to have been removed from YT (I'm sure it's floating around somewhere out there) but the other thread is here.

    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1568841&mpage=1&key=�

    Frankly, I think more artists should sue Coldplay. Starting with U2, of course.


    Ya, a class action suit on the grounds of mental cruelty would be nice. But what do I know... I've got a thing for Fall Out Boy.
    post edited by Marah Mag - 2009/01/07 00:51:21
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    Marah Mag
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 00:49:55 (permalink)
    oh oh oh oh oh !!!!

    See it while you can!

    http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/the-tech-observer/2008/12/15/youtube-yanks-coldplaysatriani-videos

    edit... actually i'm not sure if that's the same vid I saw a while back... I recall you could more clearly heard the two separate mixes playing together... not sure. They DO sound alike.

    edit 2: here's another interesting link re: this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEGGFJLpbu4
    post edited by Marah Mag - 2009/01/07 01:01:00
    #5
    Rbh
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 01:01:11 (permalink)
    There's only 12 tones in the western scale, And pretty much a limited number of time signatures in pop music... those puppies are bound to line up and get parallel with one another here and there. This is as weak of an analogy as " My sweet Lord " and "She's so fine " in my opinion. Sir George paid a pretty penny for it though. Realistically... who in their right mind would think that he would lift a melody. I have to doubt that Coldplay would intentionally lift a melody line off a guitar instrumental. If it's found to be intentional... sure sue them. But if it's found to be coincidental.......then this is just taking advantage of a random opportunity. Sometimes...the law is an ass.

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    esmail1
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 02:14:28 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Jessie Sammler

    I disagree. There's a pretty good argument for Joe's side here, and it doesn't really matter if his song is "weak" or isn't as commercially successful as Coldplay's.

    Frankly, I think more artists should sue Coldplay. Starting with U2, of course.



    I agree.....Commerciality of Joe's song has nothing to do with it.

    However that small melodic fragment bears little resemblance to the entire Coldplay song, when you look at it as a whole. Yeah there are some similarities but I have heard much worse cases of stealing.

    If Joe has some documented proof that Coldplay ripped this intentionally, then he has a case...but that will be hard to prove imo, as the usage of that small melodic fragment is totally different between the two songs.

    Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Melodic fragments most likely contains this exact phrase in there somewhere....

    Frankly the direct rip of the Finnish musician by Timberland for that Nelly Futato song a couple years ago is more way more suspect than this one...here it is:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4KX7SkDe4Q

    after much thinking about it...im sticking by my original opinion that i dont think that the coldplay is a deliberate rip of that guitar line...
    post edited by esmail1 - 2009/01/07 02:52:19
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    esmail1
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 02:22:40 (permalink)
    Here is Timbaland trying to explain the difference between stealing and "sampling"... the way he trys to explain it, it sounds like the same thing...although he claims that it is not:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTvY3wZrHrQ&feature=related

    I am all for the protection of the artist's creations..... and Timbaland stomps all over this idea and it makes me sick to think this guy is making millions and dismissing the importance of ripping off other artists by calling it "sampling".

    So I actually do have a song in which I created a very unique rhythm that I have never heard before in my life...it is quite unique and works very well with the song.... so if Timbaland likes it, he can just "sample" it and then give it to Furtado or Jonas Brothers or whatever lame artist that he is working with? doesnt seem right imo...
    post edited by esmail1 - 2009/01/07 02:45:23
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    esmail1
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 02:31:23 (permalink)
    .

    post edited by esmail1 - 2009/01/07 02:45:57
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    Marah Mag
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 03:31:16 (permalink)
    I suspect it's not possible to claim legal ownership of a rhythm alone. But I'm pretty sure that if another artist or producer uses a piece of copyrighted material beyond a certain threshold, or actually samples a published and copyrighted recording, then permission must be sought (from someone) and royalities must be paid (to someone.)

    I'm going to be doing a song where i plan for the middle bridge section to use the first lyriccal line and melody from Superstar (by Russell/Bramlett/Bramlett, originally recorded by the Carpenters) over the very different chords that go with my regular verses. I take for granted that I'll have to either get permission and pay something, or come up with something else.

    As for rhythms, certain rhythms just become part of the vernacular. Rhythm alone wouldn't make a case. It would have to have a similar harmonic progression. And even then, fair use is like what, 4 or 8 measures? I don't spend much time worrying about this stuff.

    I doubt Coldplay consciously stole the Satriani bit. It wouldn't have been worth it. If they really needed that progression and melody, there'd have been more value in it to give a co-write to Satriani, which could have marginally expanded their universe of purchasers to Satriani fans who might not otherwise give CP the time of day. That's one of the strategies of inter-genre sampling. Think of the remake of "Walk This Way" with Aerosmith and Rnn DMC.

    Much of this will depend on the resources and stature of the accuser and the accused. George Harrison lost a case to the owners of He's So Fine. On the other hand, Lennon and McCartney had their names added as co-writers to the later releases of the Rutles records, or so I've read (possibly in the article linked below... not sure... it's been a while since I read it.)

    This article may be of some interest, not so much re: plagarism per se, but just the nature of musical similarity and variation.

    The Rutles and the Use of Specific Models in Musical Satire
    http://www.neilinnes.org/articles/scholarly.htm
    (see footnote 5)



    post edited by Marah Mag - 2009/01/07 03:36:58
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    esmail1
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 06:11:45 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Marah Mag

    I suspect it's not possible to claim legal ownership of a rhythm alone. But I'm pretty sure that if another artist or producer uses a piece of copyrighted material beyond a certain threshold, or actually samples a published and copyrighted recording, then permission must be sought (from someone) and royalities must be paid (to someone.)

    * yes this is true... in my case, the groove and bassline and chords I am recording now, so say Timbaland somehow hears this (like he heard the Finnish writer's song somehow), and he likes it... what is to stop him from just taking it, working it up in to a Jonas Brothers song and making more millions while I make 0 and get 0 credit, so Timbaland can dismiss it as "sampling so it is ok"?

    (obviously an extreme example here, but it did happen to the Finnish writer)....


    I'm going to be doing a song where i plan for the middle bridge section to use the first lyriccal line and melody from Superstar (by Russell/Bramlett/Bramlett, originally recorded by the Carpenters) over the very different chords that go with my regular verses. I take for granted that I'll have to either get permission and pay something, or come up with something else.

    That is a beautiful melody. If it is over different chords/key, it may very well sound quite different than the initial melody or you may end up changing it as a natural progression too...



    As for rhythms, certain rhythms just become part of the vernacular. Rhythm alone wouldn't make a case. It would have to have a similar harmonic progression. And even then, fair use is like what, 4 or 8 measures? I don't spend much time worrying about this stuff.

    I wouldnt worry about it either...but imagine if you put a song out on Youtube and 6 months later you hear it in a Nelly Futado song because Timbaland took 4 bars of it.... :) Is that cool for Timbaland to do, no strings attached? seriously...

    I doubt Coldplay consciously stole the Satriani bit. It wouldn't have been worth it. If they really needed that progression and melody, there'd have been more value in it to give a co-write to Satriani, which could have marginally expanded their universe of purchasers to Satriani fans who might not otherwise give CP the time of day. That's one of the strategies of inter-genre sampling. Think of the remake of "Walk This Way" with Aerosmith and Rnn DMC.

    That is an interesting idea...cross promotion...of course they would have to get Satriani's permission and also pay royalties... imo, though it is not enough of a melodic fragment to warrant that... Led Zeppelin had to go back and pay some money to Willie Dixon for "You Shook Me" and also the estate of Ritchie Valens for "Boogie with Stu" however things are so different these days, when someone can just "sample" an actual sound recording and make their own "song" from it so easily... at the very least, ethics have to be taken in to consideration.

    Does Timbaland have the talent to write his own actual beats without having to sample stuff?


    Much of this will depend on the resources and stature of the accuser and the accused. George Harrison lost a case to the owners of He's So Fine. On the other hand, Lennon and McCartney had their names added as co-writers to the later releases of the Rutles records, or so I've read (possibly in the article linked below... not sure... it's been a while since I read it.)

    This article may be of some interest, not so much re: plagarism per se, but just the nature of musical similarity and variation.

    The Rutles and the Use of Specific Models in Musical Satire
    http://www.neilinnes.org/articles/scholarly.htm
    (see footnote 5)


    Thanks for the links. You find great stuff on the web, and I enjoy reading your posts here.

    This evening, Quincy Jones was on late night TV here and they asked him what he thought of sampling and he said something like "it is like when Louie Armstrong copied off of "King Oliver" and then developed his own style... that is what is happening today with sampling"

    I cant say I agree with Quincy on this... it is a totally different thing for a true musician to learn to improvise or even write based on his/her influences... than it is for a producer to just "sample" beats and turn them in to his/her own "songs"...but it is what it is...Quincy Jones is a very agreeable person who is very involved still in the modern music scene so he says what he says.



    #11
    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 09:19:35 (permalink)
    "Frankly, I think more artists should sue Coldplay. Starting with U2, of course."

    A youngster "turned" me on to Coldplay last year... he was going on and on about it was the U2 of his time... it took me about 30 seconds of listening to say "Brain Eno".

    It sort of warped his mind.

    best,
    mike


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    Marah Mag
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 09:25:31 (permalink)
    Well it's true that burning airlines give you so much more.
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 09:53:49 (permalink)

    "they would have to get Satriani's permission"

    Technically speaking I don't think are obliged to obtain permission... that would only be required for use of Mr Satriani's performance but anyone has the right to perform the composition.

    If they did utilize Mr Satriani's composition... they are certainly obligated to pay royalties.

    If they wanted to share royalties they would need something similar to permission as it would be implied if they entered into a publishing partnership.

    FWIW, I say all this with no knowledge or interest of the actual circumstances.

    This is my current understanding of how this stuff works. I welcome correction if I've misspoken.

    best regards,
    mike



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    Marah Mag
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 10:08:51 (permalink)
    What you're saying actually seems correct, but also like you said...

    I say all this with no knowledge or interest of the actual circumstances.


    ...me too.

    That's what highpriced IP attorneys are for.
    #15
    mcourter
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 10:15:05 (permalink)
    I think this is downright silly. So much pop music is so similar to so much other pop music, people could be suing each other left and right. My girl likes pop music. To illustrate my point, when one of her songs comes on the radio, I'll begin singing lyrics from some other similar song. Much pop is so homogenous it's difficult to distinguish between different songs. Anyone using a I-IV-V progression should be liable. Ridiculous. Satch should be laughing that Coldplay's guitarist is demonstrating his lack of real guitar skills

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    Jonbouy
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 10:31:42 (permalink)
    Satriani suing cold play, what do you think


    Well, somebody ought to by now just fer not being able to follow up a promising debut album with anything since...

    The progression is immaterial that is a straight melodic lift...IMO Joes got a good case.

    Funny both of 'em sound a bit like My Sweet Lord / He's so fine....
    post edited by Jonbouy - 2009/01/07 10:40:01

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    Marah Mag
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 10:33:03 (permalink)
    That's why production and arrangement (with the two often blending together) become increasingly important in "pop" (which as far as I'm concerned includes pretty much everything that isn't "classical" or "jazz" or whatever.)

    That's why personality -- of both the artist AND the sound -- is so important. What does the artist and the work and the total thingness mean?

    The thing called "pop" is a much more complex artform than the thing called "music." Always has been. Gotta love it. Or not.

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    wilson_inc
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 11:11:50 (permalink)
    well
    both melody lines sound spot on the same
    who copyrighted first? joe?
    then joe wins

    but then
    its like saying someone can copyright the key of C and all scales possible in it
    that no one else can use it?

    my early music influences are the Blues and 50's 60's 70's rock
    there's a lot of "borrowing" going on there
    could have been ripe ground for lawsuit's -especially for the "blues"

    or how about the old staple of C--Am--F--G or 1-6-4-5 Many hit songs used this

    back to Joe and coldplay---rich guy suing rich guys
    in music ,like life,there's nothing new under the sun
    Millions of musicians everywhere and only 12 single notes for us all to use
    someone else might have written something similar
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    Beagle
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 11:46:49 (permalink)
    I don't have an opinion about whether Cold Play copied Joe's licks or not, but just to clarify some things I'm reading in this thread:

    a copyright does NOT cover chord progressions - a copyright is for melody (and lyrics) ONLY. Performance rights is a different subject, but I didn't get the idea that's what this case was about.

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    Fog
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 11:58:07 (permalink)
    there's the old argument of bands and how their inspired... Oasis make no secret about being inspired by the Beatles

    much as Jonbouy doesn't about Chas n Dave

    have you ever sat down worked on something.. come back to it later and then you realise **** that sounds like xyz tune.. I've done it twice so far subconsciously...1 the bassline out of blue Monday... 2.. A piano riff that sounded VERY close to as massive attack song..

    people have won claims against such things in the past though.

    BUT on a far worse scale is timbabland ripping off chip (sid) music.. sampling it AND extracting the midi from it, then proclaiming it's his work. At least cold play actually played the notes if that's the case. Tim just sits there with his finger on the play/record button.

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 12:04:12 (permalink)
    Every note I play reminds me I'm standing on the shoulders of giants... it's unnerving sometimes to wonder how much of a contribution I make and how much is just bubbling up from the subconscious.

    It sort of makes listening to other peoples music seem dangerous.



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    Spaceduck
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 12:31:21 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Marah Mag

    oh oh oh oh oh !!!!

    See it while you can!

    http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/the-tech-observer/2008/12/15/youtube-yanks-coldplaysatriani-videos

    edit... actually i'm not sure if that's the same vid I saw a while back... I recall you could more clearly heard the two separate mixes playing together... not sure. They DO sound alike.

    edit 2: here's another interesting link re: this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEGGFJLpbu4


    From the article on Portfolio:

    Now, videos depicting similarities between the songs are disappearing from YouTube courtesy of Coldplay's label, EMI, which claims the videos infringe on its copyright. We found one that's still online, which you can see below for the time being.


    The ironyyyyyyyy!

    I'm definitely not in favour of more lawsuits in our already-litigiously-bloated society. I think Joe should just solve things the Chicago way. Ambush Coldplay in a dark alley and flog each one with a set of Zakk Wylde heavy guage guitar strings.

    Seriously, I don't think they consciously plagiarized the phrase, but it's very suspicious & incriminating the way they're suddenly censoring all the YouTube videos about the case. The truth is they probably heard the melody, got it lodged in their subconscious, and a few years later put it in a song. Isn't that how we all operate? Like mike, I'll give due credit to the giants on whose shoulders I stand. I could pick apart any one of my songs and tell you where each and every note was born. Is there any shame in admitting that you've learned from the masters?
    post edited by Spaceduck - 2009/01/07 12:37:26

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    #23
    Beagle
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 12:34:06 (permalink)
    I'm sure that youtube is pulling them just to keep the lawyers out of THEIR pockets. if coldplay is found guilty, the next lawsuits would be aimed at anyone who hosted coldplay's tunes, or the current lawsuit could even include them depending on the way the suit is worded.

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    #24
    Fog
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 12:35:24 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
    standing on the shoulders of giants...


    the name of the new (?) oasis album..hehe..it is also on one of the coins we use here..probably where they got it from

    beagle the easy way around like that, is to ask it as a question.. then it's not making any claim..
    post edited by Fog - 2009/01/07 12:41:12
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    jamesg1213
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 13:33:07 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Fog

    ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
    standing on the shoulders of giants...


    the name of the new (?) oasis album..hehe..it is also on one of the coins we use here..probably where they got it from

    beagle the easy way around like that, is to ask it as a question.. then it's not making any claim..


    Yes, except in true Oasis style they called it 'Standing on the Shoulder of Giants'..?? The quote is usually attributed to Sir Isaac Newton, FWIW.

    I saw the video Marah Mag originally posted - I thought the Coldplay song was greatly improved by overlaying Joe's guitar
    post edited by jamesg1213 - 2009/01/07 13:36:46

     
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    Jonbouy
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 13:50:47 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Fog

    much as Jonbouy doesn't about Chas n Dave


    Exactly....Muvva Brahn would 'ave just clipped 'em round the ear wiv all this hooha abaht a blinkin' knees up.

    oo's got the copyright on dum, diddly, um, diddly, eye anyways? Fleas arguin' about who owns the Dog agin as far as I can tell.

    Bring back public 'angin' I say and do 'em both in I reckon just make sure there's someone there to sample their last gasps to use as royalty free loops so I can use it on my Bristol style trip hop version of Yellow 'cause I reckon that along with a Morcheeba piano groove that is gonna raise it to the next level.

    Snuff Chillout Lounge Indie Retro groove is gonna be the next big thing and I'm destined to get all the royalties...

    "We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
    In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
    #27
    mcourter
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 14:16:49 (permalink)
    Good thing I'm not rich and famous. Everything I've written reminds me of something I've heard before. Fortunately I've learned to ignore that sensation or I'd nver write anything. If I WERE rich and famous, no doubt I'd be the object of a lawsuit too

    In fact, in my last tune, which was favorably received by my peers (that's you people), I ripped off a bass lick directly from Jack Bruce on Badge. I imagine I'll be hearing from him as soon as I start making money from it.
    post edited by mcourter - 2009/01/07 14:22:17

    A few guitars, a couple of basses, a MIDI controller, a mandolin, a banjo, a mic, PodFarm2
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     My music: www.Soundclick.com/markcourter
    #28
    Guitarhacker
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 14:56:21 (permalink)
    A genius never lets on where he gets his inspiration.

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

    MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
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    "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
    #29
    Fog
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    RE: Satriani suing cold play, what do you think 2009/01/07 16:08:52 (permalink)
    Jonbouy, you have reason pianos? there is a nice "in the vein of" coldplay piano preset for it
    #30
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