Save as .cwp or .cwb

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Brad
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2004/07/08 23:19:23 (permalink)

Save as .cwp or .cwb

Hi,

I'm wondering if people have a preference and why. I've always just saved my Audio w/Midi projects as .bun files cuz it all stays togethter and is unclutterd. I never bother saving as .cwp. Why save the audio in a different place than the rest of the data? But now, somehow I'm getting the feeling that this may be an unorganized way of doing things.. Any suggestions out there one way or the other?


Thanks
Brad
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    Phrauge
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/08 23:25:10 (permalink)
    cwp and Per-Project Audio Folders.
    #2
    ghijkmnop
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/08 23:26:21 (permalink)
    cwp and Per-Project Audio Folders

    Ditto.

    Come to the Other Place

    #3
    Brad
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/08 23:34:12 (permalink)
    I'm gonna try that in the future.. And is there an advantage over .cwb?
    #4
    ae
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/08 23:38:40 (permalink)
    And is there an advantage over .cwb?
    It loads and saves faster.
    #5
    Phrauge
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/08 23:39:25 (permalink)
    Buns can get corrupted, easily. Using the cwp/PPAF combo is very reliable. Much more so than buns, IMHO.
    #6
    ghijkmnop
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/08 23:40:12 (permalink)
    I'm gonna try that in the future.. And is there an advantage over .cwb?

    If a CWB somehow gets corrupted, your entire project is hosed. CWP and project audio folders has built-in disaster recovery: if the CWP is hosed, you still have the audio to import into a new project. If you lose some of the audio, you still have the track structure in the CWP to re-record.

    Come to the Other Place

    #7
    ae
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/08 23:49:26 (permalink)
    If a CWB somehow gets corrupted, your entire project is hosed

    If you use buns exclusively, doesn't it still keep the .wav files in the main audio data folder in addition to writing it to the bun file too?
    #8
    ghijkmnop
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/08 23:56:15 (permalink)
    If you use buns exclusively, doesn't it still keep the .wav files in the main audio data folder in addition to writing it to the bun file too?

    Most people use buns as the sole means of backup after removing their project from their system.

    Come to the Other Place

    #9
    Phrauge
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/08 23:56:59 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: ae

    If a CWB somehow gets corrupted, your entire project is hosed

    If you use buns exclusively, doesn't it still keep the .wav files in the main audio data folder in addition to writing it to the bun file too?


    Yeah, but that's only good if you never clean your Audio Folder. Once I back up a project, I run the Clean Audio Folder to rid my HD of all orphaned wav files. Once you do that, there's no going back. bun files were developed back in the ProAudio days before PPAF were available. PPAF are a good thing. Use them.
    #10
    sammyp
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/08 23:58:13 (permalink)
    wooah, straighten me out here. i thought the norm for saving a file to hard copy was burning a bun. file. is this not so? can you burn a cwp to data cd as well and more reliable? sorry for the dummy question. i guess i should only clean audio folder after a project is finished seeing as it clears history?
    < Message edited by sammyp -- 7/9/2004 12:01:54 AM >




    #11
    ghijkmnop
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 00:00:36 (permalink)
    You burn the CWP AND the project audio folder to the CD(s) or DVD.
    < Message edited by ghijkmnop -- 7/9/2004 12:02:00 AM >

    Come to the Other Place

    #12
    Phrauge
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 00:03:15 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: sammyp

    wooah, straighten me out here. i thought the norm for saving a file was burning a bun. file. is this not so? can you burn a cwp to data cd as well and more reliable? sorry for the dummy question.



    Backing up the cwp file and the "Audio" folder for that project, as data, is the process. The cwp files contains the project info. The Audio folder contains, well, the audio.
    #13
    sammyp
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 00:03:50 (permalink)
    You burn the CWP AND the project audio folder to the CD or DVD


    so: better then a bun? what i'm talking about is burning/saving a projects progress once every couple of weeks




    #14
    Phrauge
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 00:05:12 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: sammyp
    so: better then a bun? what i'm talking about is burning/saving a projects progress once every couple of weeks



    IMO, yes.
    #15
    rponcher
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 00:08:57 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: sammyp

    You burn the CWP AND the project audio folder to the CD or DVD


    so: better then a bun? what i'm talking about is burning/saving a projects progress once every couple of weeks


    A few people have had complaints regarding bundles getting corrupted. If you use per-project audio, you can just copy off the folder where the project lives. Or zip/rar it.


    Russ Poncher
    http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/russponchermusic.htm
    #16
    Brad
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 03:08:16 (permalink)
    Whoa! What a mess now.. I tried saving my last project.. as a cwp. Well the wavs associated with this were a wopping 650MB. The cwb file for this same project previuosly saved as cwb was only 93MB. Also, when I tried to open the .cwp file it took even longer to open than the usual 30 seconds or so that it took to open the cwb. Not so tidy and efficient after all. Something here is not right. I'll check further..
    #17
    HammerHead
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 08:10:51 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Brad

    Hi,

    I'm wondering if people have a preference and why. I've always just saved my Audio w/Midi projects as .bun files cuz it all stays togethter and is unclutterd. I never bother saving as .cwp. Why save the audio in a different place than the rest of the data? But now, somehow I'm getting the feeling that this may be an unorganized way of doing things.. Any suggestions out there one way or the other?


    Thanks
    Brad


    i used to do buns (that could sound weird right ?) but i had a bun get corrupted and after posting this same question on the old version of this forum was set straight by the solid advice from forum members....

    .cwp for me.
    #18
    HammerHead
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 08:16:08 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Brad

    Whoa! What a mess now.. I tried saving my last project.. as a cwp. Well the wavs associated with this were a wopping 650MB. The cwb file for this same project previuosly saved as cwb was only 93MB. Also, when I tried to open the .cwp file it took even longer to open than the usual 30 seconds or so that it took to open the cwb. Not so tidy and efficient after all. Something here is not right. I'll check further..


    2 things...

    for .cwp
    make sure your audio drive isn't fragmented.....if your wavs are all over the drive & sonar has to hop around to get to them it could take some time to open....650MB will take some time anyways.

    for bun
    i could be wrong here but i think saving as a bun does some kind of compression...which could be some of the reason they are more susceptible to getting corrupted....just guessing.
    #19
    dachay2tnr
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 09:00:38 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Brad

    Whoa! What a mess now.. I tried saving my last project.. as a cwp. Well the wavs associated with this were a wopping 650MB. The cwb file for this same project previuosly saved as cwb was only 93MB. Also, when I tried to open the .cwp file it took even longer to open than the usual 30 seconds or so that it took to open the cwb. Not so tidy and efficient after all. Something here is not right. I'll check further..


    Two possible problems here. First, are you using Per Project file storage? If not then it's likely the wave files you were saving were from this AND other projects as well.

    Second, if you ARE using Per Project storage, it is possible you have a lot of "unused" audio in that folder. For ex., takes that you later deleted, etc. Deleting them from the project does not remove the audio files from your drive. However, you should be able to get rid of that clutter with the Clean Audio Disk tool.
    < Message edited by dachay2tnr -- 7/9/2004 9:01:40 AM >
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    RRabbi
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 09:29:56 (permalink)
    I've always been terrified of using the Clean Audio Disk feature... I get worried that it's actually going to delete audio tracks that are still in use by a project or whatever. That said, if all my projects had been saved as a BUNDLE then technically I can clean the whole audio file folder (every file in it) so it's totally empty, because the actual audio data that I'd want is found in the bundle itself. Then I can go thru each bundle, save it as .cwp and select PPAF and I should be good to go right?

    So once I convert to Per Project Audio Folders, the directory where the Audio Data usually had files in it would now remain empty right? And as long as I can see stuff being saved in the Per Project folders, I can always clean the audio disk and not worry about losing important data?

    One final question... If I go with PPAF and record some tracks. Whenever I make changes to the project and save the .cwp file, do the CHANGED audio tracks overwrite the original tracks that had been initially saved in the PPAF?

    I just want to cover all my bases before I go and ruin projects and lose data... :)

    Dave
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    dachay2tnr
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 10:33:50 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: RRabbi

    I've always been terrified of using the Clean Audio Disk feature... I get worried that it's actually going to delete audio tracks that are still in use by a project or whatever. That said, if all my projects had been saved as a BUNDLE then technically I can clean the whole audio file folder (every file in it) so it's totally empty, because the actual audio data that I'd want is found in the bundle itself. Then I can go thru each bundle, save it as .cwp and select PPAF and I should be good to go right?

    Dave


    Yes! However, I would wait before deleting the present audio folder (unless you have disk space issues).

    Change to Per Project and make sure you've selected the option to copy audio to new folder (or something like that). Open your bundle file, which should prompt you to create a project name and location. Once the bundle has opened and everything is intact, save it as a project file. (You can use the same name as before, since it should be in a different folder.)

    Once you have reopened and resaved all your projects, then go and delete you old audio folder.

    One final question... If I go with PPAF and record some tracks. Whenever I make changes to the project and save the .cwp file, do the CHANGED audio tracks overwrite the original tracks that had been initially saved in the PPAF?


    Not to my knowledge. Each take is saved as a seperate wave file. The only change is that the project file references the new take rather than the old take.

    FWIW, I have used the Clean Audio Disk tool since PA9 and have never had a problem. On the other hand, I've been told that Murphy was actually an optomist.
    #22
    Phrauge
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 10:34:30 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Brad

    Whoa! What a mess now.. I tried saving my last project.. as a cwp. Well the wavs associated with this were a wopping 650MB. The cwb file for this same project previuosly saved as cwb was only 93MB....Something here is not right.


    Try running "Consolidate Project Audio" before you back up your project. It's under "Tools".
    #23
    neilius
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 10:37:52 (permalink)
    Also when you finish a project, select everything and Apply Audio Trimming. That will get rid of any audio data the project doesn't use, stuff outside of cropped clips and so on.

    I usually save as CWP while I am working on a project and then save as a CWB when I'm done and put it in an archives folder.

    Regards,

    Neil.
    #24
    Lofty
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 10:44:43 (permalink)
    I use CWP for the project as it rolls along and back it up in its various different stages (recording, mixing versions etc) to CWB. The CWBs go to another disc and to a DVD-RW.

    I have not lost anything yet (I don't believe I just typed that...)!

    Lofty
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    RRabbi
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 11:20:10 (permalink)
    In Craig Anderton's book Sonar 3 Mixing and Mastering he makes a good point about the absolute best way to back up files. He says bundle files, etc are all good and fine. But the sure way to do it is to always backing up the actual wave files from the tracks... He made the point that in 10 years we really don't know if the latest software will be able to read bundle files or whatever... However, pretty much everything should be able to always read .wav files... Even years from now... FYI

    Dave
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    dachay2tnr
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 11:28:43 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: neilius

    Also when you finish a project, select everything and Apply Audio Trimming. That will get rid of any audio data the project doesn't use, stuff outside of cropped clips and so on.

    I usually save as CWP while I am working on a project and then save as a CWB when I'm done and put it in an archives folder.

    Regards,

    Neil.


    Just one word of caution on the above advice. Please be aware that this will elminate all of your slip edits. IOW, if you have anything hidden via a slip edit, once you Apply Trimming you will no longer be able to uncover it.

    Since the recommendation was to do this with a "finished project" it is probably not an issue. It just seems for me, though, that a project is NEVER finished. [sm=rolleyes.gif]
    #27
    Lofty
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 11:29:36 (permalink)
    Dave - you've got a point there...or you and Craig Anderton have. Maybe I should look at backing up the Per-Project folders after tidying them up at each stage. CWB just seems so easy - one project - one file. Sonar has always been backwards-compatible though, hasn't it? You could always open a bundle file created by a prior version?

    Lofty
    #28
    Brad
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 11:32:49 (permalink)
    Well so far this has been my experience.

    It take longer to open these file up now (CWP), than before.. (.CWB)
    It saves them as much larger files..
    Clean up audio doesn't seem to do it well enough. Leavng plenty of .WAV files

    I have to look further, but this looks like a very cluttered way to save and work with a single song (project). and if I work on 3 or 4 songs at a time then I'll have wav files all over the place..And projects that take quite a while to open. By the way, before I tried this I defragmented my computer.
    At 40GB showing as my hard drive with 27GB space left. This will get used up very fast going the route of .CWP At least that's hte way it looks now.

    Brad
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    RRabbi
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    RE: Save as .cwp or .cwb 2004/07/09 11:53:22 (permalink)
    Oh man... now i'm really confused... On the one hand, bundles can get corrupted, but on the other hand .cwp supposedly have leftover wave files that get cluttered, the projects take longer to load and altogether take up more hd space (so i'm hearing...) As far as the Clean Audio Folder tool goes, when I run that will it clean the per project audio folders of unused wav files based on what the .cwp specifies? That should take care of some of the clutter I suppose...

    Dave
    #30
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