Say you have a typical rock band: drums, bass, 2 guits & vox... what order do you record?

I'll personally set out a scratch drum track (MIDI, perfect timing, non exciting) then lay over an in time scratch guitar track. Scratch vocals too. Usually bass as well. All just enough to be able to get the feel of the song. I'll then track drum properly. Then add bass. Then add all the main guitar and keys etc parts. Then add vox. Then harmonies. Then all the extra little fills etc and solos. Then mix.

That applies to my personal songs. I like to get the foundations down first and build the song up. I like to be singing to a pretty full song when I do vocals so I sing it effectivly, but my guitars will be tracked with scratch vocals in place already so I know where they need to sit in the mix when I record so there is still place for the vocals when I record them properly.

Given the time, I'd probably want to take a similar route with recording a full band (though I've only done this once - at least a band with a drummer that is).

Take into consideration the band's personal preferences too. They might really NEED to play together to sound good - especially if they have limited recording experience. If they are seasoned pros already, chances are they will be quite comfortable playing to headphones.

Also the ego of the band may also mean they want to do it one way, but you just know it's not going to work as good as it can that way. I guess you need to listen to what they want, but also learn to tell them what needs to happen for the greater good of the song, sometimes. Further more, sometimes you need to actually trick them for the best performance. For example, some singers get exceedingly nervous when you say "ok, I'm recording now, make this take perfect!". You can sometimes get away with the line "I'll just get you to sing the song through a few times as a bit of a warm up and so I can get all the levels right. I won't be recording so don't worry if you screw up." Then actually record it. Little tricks like this could be very useful.

I guess the first thing to decide is if you're playing to a click track, or playing freely. If you're going click, I'd get a quick guitar and vox scratch track down that the drummer can play to. Record that, then work your way up the instruments as you feel appropriate. Otherwise, maybe just get drummer, one guitar and vox in the room so you can get the drum take, then build the rest of the song up from there.

There are really SO many options, and each one will suit bands and recording engineers better in different ways. So choose what works for you and the band!

I think it really depends.  What Matt says is pretty typical.  I use X1 as a compositional tool.  So for me it is normally scratch guitar parts first as I write the song - along with scratch drum beats.  And then scratch vocals.  Once I have the song pretty much composed, with guitars and drums, I do it like Matt - Drums, then Bass then guitars, Keys or other parts.  The real Vocals is always the very last thing for me.

Record a scratch track  vocal and piano or guitar to a click track or a synth drum track..... if you are multitracking it, I would record the bass next, and then guitars, piano, strings and all other instruments  with the final tracks being the keeper vocal track. 

Drummers I have known and worked with didn't work well with a click. They have an ego issue..... believing that they have superior timing skills..... (not!) 

In the bazzillions of documentaries I've watched, it seems to be extremely common to track a basic rhythm section (with the singer singing along) with complete separation between drums, guitar and bass, with the goal of getting a great drum track. If anything else during that process just happens to come out really good, then great and keep it, but it's not necessarily expected.

I think it's unfortunate that that is so often done, since it definitely is putting sonics and technical perfection ahead of vibe and performance. But it's clearly very common, even with very technically accomplished bands like Rush.

Hi Chuck,
 I just went and listened to the Black Album.

 The drums actually sound like they are played last... they sort of sound that way both mix wise and arrangement wise. It seems as if they were played right on top of everything else. The drums react to the guitar rather than serve as a core foundation. They do form a frame work or reference to the tempo... but it's more like a net thrown over the top.

 I listened to the whole album and never got the sense that a bass player and a drummer were locked up and throwing down a groove. (Actually, Struggle Within almost sounded like a band playing together... but the guitar timing was sloppy if you regard the drums as the reference... go figure.)

 The whole band seems to follow the percussive strumming of the guitar strings or occasionally a slow motion bass arpeggio.

 It is a distinctive sound and if you are looking for that type of feel then it seems like  playing drums last is a good approach.

 best regards,
mike

ChuckC


It seems to me Lars was playing to the tracks of everything else that had already been laid down...?   Do I have it backwards?  Is this normal?
 
Thanks guys.  This one kinda threw me off and has me questioning my methods a bit.

That's actually how I do it too Chuck...drums after the bass and guitars are done. However, I always record a click track first before I do anything else. I don't like the regular click track that most people use though. I like to create a midi sequence of the drum line and then guitars and bass are recorded. The reason I leave the drums for later is because I know that I will play differently when the core of instruments is there as opposed to playing without them.
 
Like for example, as a drummer I like to feed off of the bass guitar yet I may accent certain parts along with the rhythm guitars. If I do the drums first, I sort of lose this feel of feeding off the other instruments. We actually recorded my last album like this as well. Click track, guitars then bass, then our drummer came back and played along to us and the click track at the same time. Other times, we tracked at the same time with bass, guitars and a scratch vocal just so everyone knew where we were in the the song. The whole take at this point, was for the drums to be printed. But it really didn't matter which way we used..both were equally lethal and worked fine.
 
I leave all the special type instruments for last. You know...like back-up vocals, piano/keys, lead guitars, acoustics. However, if those instruments are main focal points in the song, they go down before the drums. But if they are just backing type instruments to fill things out, I always do them last. It really depends on the situation. It also depends on the band you're working with too. Some guys just need a different system in order to record properly. They feed off of different things, so you may find yourself accommodating.....which also goes with the territory.
 
But most times, I';ve been successful with all bands when I make them play to a midi drum beat as opposed to a regular click track. I pan it off to one side and it works great because just about every drummer has played to cover songs while honing his chops. Hearing a beat instead of a click sort of relaxes them so that they aren't trying super hard to hone in on just "that annoying click". So experiment and see what may work best brother. Good luck. :)
 
-Danny

Mike & Matt-
  Yeah guys for sure...  It seems to me if the drums aren't there first that the whole song will take on a different feel and other elements will be the ones pushing the song along.  I guess if it works for that band and that song all is well but my stuff tends to be aggressive and the snare really leads most of the songs, if it's on or behind the beat it would really get wierd to me.

Danny-  I wouldn't have guessed that you would tend to record that way, I'd have figured with access to a nice big studio (or two) like you do that you'd set up and lay most of it down at once, overdub as needed.
What ever works right!   I can understand how it would be easier for a band to record to a midi drum track rather than a click.  That makes total sense.  I have yet to program a drum sequence so that would take me a while the 1st time or too should I decide to try it. 

Bats- thanks for the input.  I don't know who todd rundgren is but it's funny that you mention that method...
The night that I was going to lay down the drums for our song "peace from my mind" (the one I recently posted a video for in the song forum)  it was only one guitarist and I that could make it to practice that evening so I figured I'd get that done to make use of the time.   He was really kinda throwing me the hell off as we were both trying to play to the click.  I ended up telling him to just play throught the intro then once the drums come in please.... just stop and put the guitar down.  I played the drums all the way through to just the click and nailed the 2nd attempt once we went to that method.  Everything else was tracked afterwards.

BTW, it's pretty well known that the Black Album drums were a huge hodge-podge. They were practically doing DAW level editing on tape. The folks involved have talked about how they'd end up with a tape so full of splices that they would immediately bounce it to another tape because they didn't trust it to stay together more than one run through. They put up a bunch of mics, placed all over the room, then chose a bunch of them and, from what they said, EQ'd the crap out of them.

mike_mccue


Hi Chuck,
I just went and listened to the Black Album.

The drums actually sound like they are played last... they sort of sound that way both mix wise and arrangement wise. It seems as if they were played right on top of everything else. The drums react to the guitar rather than serve as a core foundation. They do form a frame work or reference to the tempo... but it's more like a net thrown over the top.

I listened to the whole album and never got the sense that a bass player and a drummer were locked up and throwing down a groove. (Actually, Struggle Within almost sounded like a band playing together... but the guitar timing was sloppy if you regard the drums as the reference... go figure.)

The whole band seems to follow the percussive strumming of the guitar strings or occasionally a slow motion bass arpeggio.

It is a distinctive sound and if you are looking for that type of feel then it seems like  playing drums last is a good approach.

best regards,
mike

Mike, if you watch that documentary I linked to in the CH thread, you'll see exactly how they did the drums - the whole band playing together, doing multiple takes of the song (presumably to a click, that wasn't clear), then the best parts of the various drum takes were spliced together.

This also how Daniel Lanois approached Manu Katche's drums on Peter Gabriel's  'So' sessions - ''bar 32, take 6, yeah that's the one, use that..''

Very time-consuming obviously (especially with tape and razor blades!), but the ethos was that they wanted the 'ultimate performance' to go on the record.

jamesg1213

mike_mccue


Hi Chuck,
I just went and listened to the Black Album.

The drums actually sound like they are played last... they sort of sound that way both mix wise and arrangement wise. It seems as if they were played right on top of everything else. The drums react to the guitar rather than serve as a core foundation. They do form a frame work or reference to the tempo... but it's more like a net thrown over the top.

I listened to the whole album and never got the sense that a bass player and a drummer were locked up and throwing down a groove. (Actually, Struggle Within almost sounded like a band playing together... but the guitar timing was sloppy if you regard the drums as the reference... go figure.)

The whole band seems to follow the percussive strumming of the guitar strings or occasionally a slow motion bass arpeggio.

It is a distinctive sound and if you are looking for that type of feel then it seems like  playing drums last is a good approach.

best regards,
mike

Mike, if you watch that documentary I linked to in the CH thread, you'll see exactly how they did the drums - the whole band playing together, doing multiple takes of the song (presumably to a click, that wasn't clear), then the best parts of the various drum takes were spliced together.

This also how Daniel Lanois approached Manu Katche's drums on Peter Gabriel's  'So' sessions - ''bar 32, take 6, yeah that's the one, use that..''

Very time-consuming obviously (especially with tape and razor blades!), but the ethos was that they wanted the 'ultimate performance' to go on the record.

It has been my impression that if I were to watch that video that I would probably never actually listen to the record, so I started with the record and now feel like I don't need to see the video. :-)

I did go listen to the earlier records later in the afternoon and that reminded me what a great band Metallica is at times.

best regards,
mike

Yeah I have seen that too, or worse when they feel they don't need a metronome at all, their timing is aweful then they got a 8 bar break with just guitar and vocals, then when it comes time to over dub he can't get the timing right coming back in...

"No dude, you sped up and got their early....
Nope,ya slower down, A little late...
Still late.....
Dude you can hear the scratch track in the cans right? ok try it again, relax you got this!
Ehhh.... early again
You we're even earlier that time...
Late once again.....
OMG give me the F*#%ing guitar!!"   HAHA

Here Chuck C Read this http://www.amazon.com/Here-There-Everywhere-Recording-Beatles/dp/1592401791

Everybody can hand out advice but guess what, THERE ARE NO RULES, this book will teach you this!!!!

The sooner you get over is there a way?, the better you will become at the creative prospects of audio engineering.

He who shall remain nameless was correct in saying a band playing together without a click track is a good way to do things but that is sooo last century!!!.

Look as long as the bass player or the rhythm guitarist has the technique and can play to a click track, you can start almost anywhere.

If you are The Beatles, you can even do it without a click track.

Ok to reiterate:

NO RULE"S, we can be Digital Punks
and read Emericks book.  Also try this one: http://www.amazon.com/The-Beatles-Recording-Sessions-1962-1970/dp/0517581825

These guys invented modern studio recordings, without historical perspective it's like pissing in the dark and you will end up with piss on your boots, LOL

Neb

That about covers it.


+1
amen

"No dude, you sped up and got their early.... Nope,ya slower down, A little late... Still late..... Dude you can hear the scratch track in the cans right? ok try it again, relax you got this! Ehhh.... early again You we're even earlier that time... Late once again..... OMG give me the F*#%ing guitar!!"   HAHA

hey Chuck-been there!
i try to get the band in for "pre-production" first and record them live as a "soundcheck".that way they are less nervous than if they were"actually" recording and i concentrate on feedback from the drummer mainly as to whether the take feels and sounds good to him or her and depending on how loud the band is and therefore how much spill there is in the overheads and usually the soundcheck takes become the drum tracks.
once again it`s horses for courses and i record live exclusively(and cheaply) and the bands i get are aware of that and i will only overdub if there is a technical problem or the overall track quality justifies it.
referencing jeffevans-i had a band last week where the chorus kicked in at 106db on the meter-no lie-JCM`s and a SVT in my small room-they refused to turn down as they would "lose the energy" and i refused to record them-no skin off my nose.
not advice just an opinion from a home studio operator cranking out budget demo`s.   
ps:i`ve never used a clicktrack successfully and it`s up to the client to decide if they are "in time" or not.
one  reason people record live is to catch the push and pull and the "feel" of a live performance(a couple of extra bpm between the verse and chorus) rather than the fidelity of the recording-i`ve been known to play behind the beat and over the bar which raises a few eyebrows but can be effective.
once again -horses for courses
cheers

Speaking of speeding up in a chorus, anyone played around with using a metronome and actually putting in a gradual 1 or 2 BPM increase leading up to a chorus to try and simulate that feel, but still have a tight sounding song? Done well, I think it can work alright, but it needs to be programmed well so it still sounds natural.