Sending bass and drums to a bus with heavy compression

Compression is too complicated for me.  I use presets on the couple i have and so the "bass" preset is not the same as the 'kick' preset so i do them separately.    I will try them on on compressor to see if it tightens them together.

Thanks for the thread!

hey kev1111111...111, how ya been man??

Like our esteemed colleague Mr. N Howe esquire the 3rd, I'm pretty confused by comp settings so I stick with presets a lot. But I do know it's good to group similar instruments & frequencies like you're doing (drums & bass).

If you start to mix dissimilar instruments, like flute & drums, you might get a high pitched flute note wiping your kick drum off the map.

And I guess that's the problem with putting compression on the master bus. Lots of engineers say no to master buss compression & instead apply it on individual tracks or instrument groups. Drums & bass are a pretty safe bet, but I might worry about guitar+drums+bass, unless they're all doing the same part like in "Iron Man" or "My Sharona"

P.S. Philip's suggestion of Parallel compression +1!!

Philip


I always use a parallel compression buss for snare and kick.  I suppose ...

I'll try to exploit it like you ... for vox and guitar ... to expand the low-levels these 2 instruments oft slip down to.  But, its more commonly used, IIRC, for bass, kick, and snare.
 
(I, personally, compress/squash/re-bounce my bass signal seperately and don't use the parallel comp buss
 
... because I don't trust my bass-ears on sustain-sounds, I personally like to see the consistent waveform with a 3dcbl attack spike)

I use Ozone's Multi-comp module only on the parallel comp buss:
I Limit down: 30 dcbls (with no expansion) with maximum ratio (30/1)
My attacks are short: 0ms
Release: 208ms

I figured this dull-squashed (return) signal would be tidy for consistent manipulation at the track level. 

On the track level I set the snare level to -9.0 and center-panned (with the snare)
On the track level I set the Kick level to -7.0 and center-panned (with the kick)

(but I use Superior drummer 2 ... which benefits greatly from the parallel comp buss)
 
 
ADDENDUM: OK, I just experimented with the vox-buss itself with +6 level on the track (centered).
 
... After, I sent the vox buss signal(s) to the parallel-Comp buss.  The result is a thicker vox-sound during the singers' weaker-sustains ... I also confirm it visually with the waveforms.
 
Later I may do parallel vox compression on a track-to-track basis.  But don't trust my ears.

 
Good read that was ! Theres quite a lot in your post so I'm going to have to have a fresh look at it tommorow ! I get the gist of what you're saying,but you lose me a little on certain things.Like for example 'IIRC'.Is this something to do with average levels ? I'll have a fresh look at it tommorow anyway,there looks like some good ideas :)
Kev
 

IIRC = If I remember correctly

Forum shorthand

Later
Albert

Spaceduck


hey kev1111111...111, how ya been man??

Like our esteemed colleague Mr. N Howe esquire the 3rd, I'm pretty confused by comp settings so I stick with presets a lot. But I do know it's good to group similar instruments & frequencies like you're doing (drums & bass).

If you start to mix dissimilar instruments, like flute & drums, you might get a high pitched flute note wiping your kick drum off the map.

And I guess that's the problem with putting compression on the master bus. Lots of engineers say no to master buss compression & instead apply it on individual tracks or instrument groups. Drums & bass are a pretty safe bet, but I might worry about guitar+drums+bass, unless they're all doing the same part like in "Iron Man" or "My Sharona"

P.S. Philip's suggestion of Parallel compression +1!!

Hey !
  I'm good mate thanks.I sent you an email last by the way ! Yep good post there.I know what you're saying when you say its best to use the bus compression on similiar instruments.I did try with guitar,bass,and drums and it just sounded whacked out lol.I guess you're right,that if the parts are playing similiar lines you could get away with it better - like guitar and bass in octaves I guess,or the example you cited with Iron Man. I think for now I'll just keep it simple and try to use it for the kick and bass.
Catch u soon
Kev
 

kev11111111111111

Philip


I always use a parallel compression buss for snare and kick.  I suppose ...

I'll try to exploit it like you ... for vox and guitar ... to expand the low-levels these 2 instruments oft slip down to.  But, its more commonly used, IIRC, for bass, kick, and snare.
 
(I, personally, compress/squash/re-bounce my bass signal seperately and don't use the parallel comp buss
 
... because I don't trust my bass-ears on sustain-sounds, I personally like to see the consistent waveform with a 3dcbl attack spike)

I use Ozone's Multi-comp module only on the parallel comp buss:
I Limit down: 30 dcbls (with no expansion) with maximum ratio (30/1)
My attacks are short: 0ms
Release: 208ms

I figured this dull-squashed (return) signal would be tidy for consistent manipulation at the track level. 

On the track level I set the snare level to -9.0 and center-panned (with the snare)
On the track level I set the Kick level to -7.0 and center-panned (with the kick)

(but I use Superior drummer 2 ... which benefits greatly from the parallel comp buss)
 
 
ADDENDUM: OK, I just experimented with the vox-buss itself with +6 level on the track (centered).
 
... After, I sent the vox buss signal(s) to the parallel-Comp buss.  The result is a thicker vox-sound during the singers' weaker-sustains ... I also confirm it visually with the waveforms.
 
Later I may do parallel vox compression on a track-to-track basis.  But don't trust my ears.

Hi !
I've had another read of your post ! When you say you're using the Ozone plugin for the compression...are u using it as a limiter here ? When the ratio is high like this it usually means its acting as a limiter ? Is this like more of an extreme form of bus compression than just using using a compressor ?
You lost me a little bit when you said 
"I personally like to see the consistent waveform with a 3dcbl attack spike) " - I haven't a clue what this means !! Is this how sharp the attack is ?
Thanks for mentioning that the technique could be used on guitar and vox.I think this is something else I've definately got to try !
Many thanks for your post -it really got me thinking about the possibilities of Par.Compression some more !
Kev
 
 

Sorry for my pathetic and ridiculous choice of words. 
 
IIRC (as per Gambler): "If I remember/read correctly".  I use it a lot to keep from mis-quoting others.
 
-------------------------------
 
As a starting point ... I fancy that I like a bass guitar attack waveform to have an additional 3 dcb +/- (thin spike ... 1-5 msecs) at its leading edge ... in order to 'hear' the guitar-pick timbre sound (wave). 
 
The rest (sustaining) of the pick-sound stays squashed ... for me thats usually a 100-250 msec release time ... depending on the bass sample.  Again I confirm with my eyeballs ... not just my ears (which oft fail me in the bass-range).
 
My bass-line is no where near as tight as many of those in rhythm and bass genre ... due to my 'melodious' personality.
 
But, I myself, also wack off anything above 1kHz with a low pass filter ... as my East-West Ministry of Rock grumbly Fender basses seems against my religion for a tight mix. 
 
But many DimPro samplers only require strong compression.
 
Ozone and Voxformer also have presets that may hint you in the strait-and-narrow direction for basses.
 
Of course ... once the bass line is consistent and squashed-level (perhaps with Sonars tube leveler + Sonitus compressor in the fx bin) ... I'll bounce it ... mono-left channel ... no reverb.
 
Also, I HPF at 30kHz (sooner or later) to keep out the rumble.
 
... finally, I will apply volume envelopes to enhance its cool-solid vibes in sections or measures.
EDIT:  Correcto-mundo: I HPF at 30cycles(not 30Khz).

Oops! Drats!  No wonder I can't hear my bass anymore!  Haha!


Thanks Bristol!  I meant 30 Hz+/- (... though I'm not sure 30 Hz is ideal).
 
Also, after a day or 2 of parallel compression on the vox buss ... I've reverted to no parallel compression for the vocs.  The vocs seemed 'messed' a bit.
 
I may try for parallel buss compression for guitars ... and report later (perhaps).  Tambs oft seem to sound better (to me) with it.
 

Jim Roseberry

Can the same principle apply to other elements of the mix,like say 2 guitars + bass + bass drum ?

 
Absolutely...
Aerosmith's guitars have been processed this way... for exactly the same reason.
(Tightens up the tracks so they function more as a single unit)
 
 

thats cool,I'm definately going to try this out ! Thanks !
Kev

Is it almost always the case that the kick and bass have to be EQ'd? Would anyone have any rough EQ settings for this...

I'm supposing that most bass and kick lines have similar wave profile, so there may be some 'preset' that could be used for these?

Sorry if I'm way off the mark

Since my objective has always been to get the most "natural" sound possible, emphasis on the live characteristics and "feel" of the performance, I try to not do any eq on the bass or kick. I've never done any work with electronic/dance/hip hop types of music, where there is a lot of bottom end to control, so I can't speak to those genres, though. But in country, blues, rock, and the instrumentals I've worked with, I've almost never found situations where the kick and bass were so congested that they needed artificial or augmented separation.

I also approach the mix from a minimalist point of view. The instruments sound the way they do because that is what they sound like, why should I mess with them? Of course, that is assuming that they were recorded properly in the first place, but so far the people I have worked with already have the recording end under control.

Less is more, simplify, do no harm.

Just an opinion, another side of the same coin.

Later
Albert

Personally, I wouldn't put both drums and bass on the same bus. Too much low energy and power there that could easily crush the highs if not using a multiband (even then it is tricky), as well as muddying up the bottom.
I really don't send anything directly to the Master bus (too much can go wrong, in my experience).
Generally, I send each of these to their own bus, and do appropriate shaping there (many times I use Ozone, but have recently started using Izotope's new Alloy plug):
Vocals
BG Vocals
Drums
Bass
Guitars
Keys
EE (everything else!)
and then sum them all to the Master Bus.

But that's just me..

gamblerschoice



I also approach the mix from a minimalist point of view. The instruments sound the way they do because that is what they sound like, why should I mess with them? Of course, that is assuming that they were recorded properly in the first place, but so far the people I have worked with already have the recording end under control.

Less is more, simplify, do no harm.

Just an opinion, another side of the same coin.

Later
Albert

Hi
     It was funny reading this post,because you've given more or less the exact same advise as what this engineer gave me yesterday. I told him I was having problems with my mixing - things not sitting right,no clarity etc etc.He told me to forget about compression,EQ,delays and reverbs and just concentrate on getting everything to sit nicely 'dry'. I think this is probably just common sense to a lot of people,but it's amazing the differance it can make. The idea of keeping things simple is definately something I'm working on at the moment !
Thanks for your post - good read.
Kev
 

Well Kev,

'Appears to me you've gotten a lot of diametically contrasting ideas to work with. 

But your thread (along with all these artists' most excellent responses) has given me much greater understanding and inspiration on dealing with the low end.

IMHO, one thing seems certain.  Though there seem a lot of ways to enhance your groove ... no one way works for us all ... and your bass-line has a lot of creative potential(s).

gamblerschoice


..."'Appears to me you've gotten a lot of diametically contrasting ideas to work with"...

I think that is the beauty of this kinda stuff. There are so many ways to do it and still get great results. Even if I don't follow a person's work flow or practices, I can still learn a good deal, and I have access to different procedures that have been tested by others in the mix.

Later
Albert

It certainly makes what we do more of an art and less of a science.
 
The OP has had all sorts of advice, ranging from "Do Nothing" to "Savagely Crush It" and everything in between.

kev11111111111111


hi,
yep this is what I've just started doing too. At the moment I'm using Sonar 6 (producer),and one of the drawbacks is that there doesn't seem to be any sidechain options.I've set up this technique on the bus so that whenever the kick comes in,the compressor squashs the signal leaving more room for the bass. It seems to work lol though maybe it's not standard practise. Have you ever used compression like this ? Do you know of any way that sidechaining can be done in Sonar 6,or is the upgrade the only way to go ?
Kev

 

Hi Kev
 
AFAIK native sidechaining is not possible in Sonar 6.  A popular work-around is to use Twisted Lemon's Sidekick plug-in, http://www.twistedlemon.nl/site/index.php
 
They are plugging version 4 which costs $20.  However the earlier versions were free and worked well.  You simply insert 2 instances of the plug in on to the two tracks you want to connect, and then tweak the settings to get instant ducking or keying.  If you dig around you might be able to find the free-ware version to try.  If you search for sidekick on the Forum you should get some more info about using it in Sonar.
 
Good luck
 
Jamie