Helpful ReplyLockedSerious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ?

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e3do
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2017/12/20 00:39:34 (permalink)

Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ?

Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional if I can get a couple of productive years out of it?
It's the only interface I ever liked and I'm am finally going to buy it legitimately.
If I have a questionable version of a different product (like Sonar Producer 7), should I just use that until something hopefully moves positively forward with this interface?
Any feedback would be appreciated; i'm sure others would like to know
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CTStump
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 01:05:22 (permalink)
You can't purchase anything here. Kinda wierd to claim usage of cracked software on the manufacturer's forum even if it's not being supported.

The interwebz, where everythings free until you wanna go legit and it's too late.

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#2
BJN
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 02:35:45 (permalink)
No missed the chance to own it.
There is really no reason not to own a DAW, Reaper is like $60 and very good but it takes alot to be able to make it easy where DAWs like Sonar have made it easier from the get go.
Right now for $149 till the 20th you can get Samplitude Pro3X Suite, much too good to pass up but you will have to get it NOW, today!
There are plenty of cross grade deals but the ProX Suite is the best value; comes with SoundForge and 70gigs of SoftSynths and sample libraries.
 

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And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes.
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outland144k
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 04:17:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/12/20 05:05:03
e3do
Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional if I can get a couple of productive years out of it?
It's the only interface I ever liked and I'm am finally going to buy it legitimately.
If I have a questionable version of a different product (like Sonar Producer 7), should I just use that until something hopefully moves positively forward with this interface?
Any feedback would be appreciated; i'm sure others would like to know


 
You will perhaps forgive me if I sound too judgmental, but I consider cracked versions of software to be one of the major reasons we lost our beloved Sonar.
 
Do whatever you want, I couldn't care less. I do hope that a virus from one of your questionable versions of software brings down your system to perhaps emphasize to you the immorality of your ways, but I seriously doubt even that will make the point to you.
 
Let me put it another way to you: I've been carrying you for many years. I've always paid for all my software. I (and the other individuals here with ethics) have been those who have unknowingly and unwillingly given you license to steal applications from those who are underpaid to develop them by supporting the software in the way required by law. If I or anyone here helps you in your issue, we take part in your thoughtlessly willing and destructive behavior. 
 
Believe me, I do not have any illusion that what I or anyone say here will have any effect on you, but know this: there will eventually be payment exacted from you. I hope that this will happen sooner rather than later.
 
Posting on the website of defunct software you of which you use a cracked version? Your personal ethics are lower than pond scum.

“Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy” is attributed to Benjamin Franklin perhaps in error, but the thought remains a worthy sentiment nonetheless.

 
 
 
 
 
#4
DrLumen
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 04:29:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bdickens 2017/12/20 18:44:47
IMNTSHO, you should have bought it back then. Loathing and judgment aside, you can probably still buy it at Guitar Center or online somewhere. I think it would still be worth it. I can commend you for finally wanting to go legal.
 
Just curious, how would you feel if whatever music you make, was getting pirated and it became something like Gangnam Style? And, you never saw a cent? All kinds of people making money from your creation as you sit at home broke...

-When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

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tlw
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 05:31:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bdickens 2017/12/20 18:44:24
e3do
Any feedback would be appreciated; i'm sure others would like to know


I’m curiious.

Do you pay for the music you listen to or do you steal from musicans and songwriters as well as software companies and their employees?

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dubdisciple
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 06:42:28 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bdickens 2017/12/20 18:44:08
Kind of late to do that. No one can change the past, but you can control present. Research DAWs and actually buy one. Piracy didn't kill sonar, but certainly didn't help. You can't help sonat, but yiu can help your conscious and other companies struggling.
#7
PH68
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 07:35:12 (permalink)
Sonar is now dead, so why on earth would you buy it?
Take your money elsewhere.
Try the other DAW's by downloading their trial versions.
Then buy the one you like.

~ Cakewalk ~ Arturia ~ Waves ~ Overloud ~ Windows ~
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tenfoot
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 10:00:33 (permalink)
Haha... I think it would be foolish beyond measure at this stage. Copped a bit of a beating from some seriously judgemental high horsed keyboard warriors there e3do! You would think you just confessed to shooting their mothers:). Glad to here you want to go legit. Always a better way if you can scrounge up the cash. I suggest you have a look at Studio One 3. Happy musicing!

Bruce.
 
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chuckebaby
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 11:08:07 (permalink)
If the authorization thing was squared away, I would probably say yes (at a reduced price). Because it is still a great software.
But not knowing if Sonar will hand over this authorization code or not, I wouldn't buy it. 

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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 14:45:42 (permalink)
The answer to the original question is no, there is currently no way to buy SONAR - with one possible exception. There might still be some existing boxed inventory available from retailers.
 
Even if you find one via, say, eBay or Amazon, it's still likely gonna be of questionable provenance since it's probably second-hand and SONAR's license explicitly forbids reselling.
 
But yeh, if you can get your hands on a legal copy of SONAR at a good price, I'd go for it. At this time you can still register it and get the latest update.
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
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mettelus
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 14:54:11 (permalink)
I highly doubt this was a serious question, but more a post to elicit reaction.

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CTStump
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 15:15:11 (permalink)
mettelus
I highly doubt this was a serious question, but more a post to elicit reaction.


That was my thinking as well, kinda sure he knew that it wasn't possible seeing other threads about Cakewalk's situation and then not responding too the flames being thrown at him.

Probably see more these posts until the end of the forum I'm afraid jerking chains unnecessarily.

Good luck too the OP on his/her rehabilitation.

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bdickens
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 17:13:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/12/20 17:22:52
Next time you guys are complaining about this, that or the other software companies PITA licencing and authorization scheme, be sure to remind yourselves that it is this a$$ hole's fault.

Byron Dickens
#14
Steev
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 18:44:17 (permalink)
Not foolish at all, and YES you should absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt purchase it.
 I'm not going into pointing fingers or making value judgements kinda stuff, but it has obviously worked for you so far, you've created a work flow that you understand with Cakewalk software, so lets just say shelling out a couple of hundred Franklin's for SONAR Pro today is very little interest on (or honest gratitude on) a long standing debt..
 I'd be remiss, or actually down right dishonest to say I've never used cracked software or keygens to try out different DAWs and plugins. I have, and I'll also admit to happily purchasing any and all of them that I liked and found useful.
 To do otherwise is nothing short of moral corruption which goes against the grain of my moral compass and sense of fairness in respect to entitlements.
 
 How can anyone expect to make any real progress or turn their talents into making an honest living without give a fair share of the money to those who help us get there?
 
 How can anyone expect anyone not to honor and not infringe on OUR copyrights when we infringe on theirs?
 
OK lets be honest and reasonable shall we, there is a freak'in enormous tidal wave of really excellent software choices for making music, which has created a virtual nuclear reaction of ad campaigns so freak'in fierce that many vendors not only lead their users to believe that their previous version is literal junk compared to their new and improved version, nobody else's products could ever be considered, and just to prove our point, we'll give you a free 30 day trial.. Blah, blah blah, which never proves to a anything more then a carrot on a stick in the long run..
 To put it another way, I've been using Cakewalk for decades now, I'm extremely proficient with it, but I still don't know how use all it's plethora of various tools or even care to learn everything about how to use them because they aren't applicable to my work flow. But that doesn't mean I won't find the time or find these tools useful in the future.....
 For me to sit down and actually learn how to fully "understand" and use all of SONAR's potential, I would have any time left to make music.
 
That being said, out of all the DAW environments I've actually  worked and collaborated in with seasoned "power users" through the years, I feel confident in the realization that NONE OF THEM covers all the bases like SONAR does, and or does them as well.
 
 And in that respect, SONAR DOESN'T NEED ANY FURTHER DEVELOPEMENT in the near future! Not at least until all others can catch up. ;-p 
 For instance, as a seasoned user of both DAW's, on one hand, I would have to give  the latest Pro Tools 12 version a very high rating, an honest "A" rating for sure, it finally matured into the wonderful world of bodacious x64 power, it really is quite a jaw dropping and inspiring development.
 One I'm very fond of and remembering experiencing first hand when the bakers of Cakewalk released SONAR 6 Producer a few years, or decade(?) back..
 So a HUGE CONGRATS for AVID catching up to SONAR 6 Producer (you have every reason to be proud), perhaps ya'all will catch up to SONAR 8.5 Producer with PT v13.
 
And we got a VERY bodacious and innovative Dente/Ethernet interfacing power of Steinberg and Yamaha marriage going on here with NUAGE.
Solid and worthy contender for both the dying AVID Pro Tools HD and the now defunct Cakewalk Roland marriages.
 Focusrite RedNet has already nailed AVID's coffin shut, Behringer and Presonus have both taken lead with an open source "let's try to support everybody and everything" extremely affordable Dente/Ethernet interfacing approach.
 
If there is one thing I'm certain of, as soon as it becomes affordable Dente/Ethernet interfacing will be the death nail all USB and Thunderbolt interfaces and before you know it we'll all forget recording latency issues ever existed.
 Sorry ProCo, but we won't be needing your expensive BIG, heavy, bulky, hard to handle and manage 100' 16 channel low impedance snakes anymore, now that we can run 2x the channels thru a very inexpensive tiny Cat 6 Internet cable at 3x the distance.
 And we can record a guitar part in the bed room, the vocals in the kitchen, and or the drums set up in the basement of the house next door at about 6 ms roundtrip latency directly into the DAW of your choice over WiFi and everyone who has a smartphone has control of their own monitor mix, completely independent of the DAW or FOH (front of house) mix.
Well, you will if you CONTINUE to UPGRADE & PAY FOR IT!
Thank you Behringer, thank you Presonus. :o) And above all else, thank you Cakewalk for making it so easy and customizable with so many choices to work in so many ways and different workflows, with so many killer high quality tools to choose from..
 
 So to close, SONAR isn't dead, Gibson may just be limping a bit and needs to adjust to a crowd who's sense of entitlement of "how much can I get for free" and "how much can I make from it" mentality that gave them the limp in the first place..???...
post edited by Steev - 2017/12/20 19:32:53

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#15
jamesg1213
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 20:46:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2017/12/20 21:37:14
Wow...

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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#16
chuckebaby
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 21:37:02 (permalink)
Trying to justify your use of cracked software by gift wrapping it with "I buy what I like".
 
That's weak.

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#17
whattarush
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 22:26:15 (permalink)
Amazon has one left in stock for $499

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Ruben
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/20 23:36:46 (permalink)
e3do
Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional if I can get a couple of productive years out of it?
It's the only interface I ever liked and I'm am finally going to buy it legitimately.
If I have a questionable version of a different product (like Sonar Producer 7)... 

 
Hehe... you probably shouldn't posted that.  
 
But anyway, I don't think it's so crazy to want to buy Sonar Platinum. If it's what you like using and it helps you to be productive, then go for it. But I wouldn't pay full price for it - I'd be looking for retailers who just want to unload the boxes they have and are willing to discount the price. After all, it's a discontinued product. You may need to wait until some of these retailers get antsy to move their copies of Sonar and offer it for 75% off. 
 

  
#19
igiwigi
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 00:01:29 (permalink)
Go for Mixcraft, nice and easy to get around.
Only drawback I s no Sys Ex
#20
Steev
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 00:44:31 (permalink)
chuckebaby
Trying to justify your use of cracked software by gift wrapping it with "I buy what I like".
 
That's weak.


Spending 1000's of dollars on software you don't like is just flat out stupid.
 
Now while continuing using cracked software is undoubtedly wrong there is nothing weak about admitting you were wrong.
 
Weakness grows and festers into complete dishonesty in those who refuse to admit to owning any faults and never acknowledging making mistakes.
 
I must applaud and give kudos to e3po for honesty and integrity. And thank you, I really got a chuckle out of the topic this post.  And I'm quite confident purchasing SONAR Pro will not only be the best $200(us) investment you may ever make, it will surely give you many years of service and pleasure of creating music even if Gibson and Cakewalk can't recover.
 
And to any and all of highbrow you posers pointing fingers and pretending to be perfect and forever walk upon God's grey Earth without sin........... All I can say is ppPPPPPPPPPPPPbbbbbbbTTTTTTTTHHZZZzzzz! 

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#21
rbrodbec
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 01:14:13 (permalink)
I have at least 30 songs/projects in sonar right now and my number one goal is to get them out and into another DAW before some windows update wrecks it.  It might happen in a year, 6 months or next Tuesday but it will probably happen.
 
The sooner I am out and into a DAW that's not "out of business" the better I will feel.  I can't spend another minute composing/editing within the Sonar ecosystem.  The time I get to work on music is too precious to wake up to find out the whole thing is corrupted.
#22
e3do
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 01:20:36 (permalink)
Ok, folks.
My mistake for even mentioning the fact that I have a questionable software product, but really?
All that hatred was a bit much for me.
Truth be told, I was an accomplished and poor drummer/amateur composer ALL of my years, which is why I only wanted to dabble in anything digital. I tried a bunch of demos over a decade ago and liked Cakewalk. Being that I had a regular day job and many responsibilities, I couldn't afford to use it often, much less pay for it. So if I only used the software as a hobbyist a few times a year for my own pleasure and/or collaboration, why would I pay so much? The people you should be mad at are the ones who make money (or try to) using the software. That is the real crime and IMHO cause of any large negative backlash. 
I don't believe in piracy (with exceptions). Remember Napster? Of course , NONE of you ever used it, right?
What about the whole hip-hop rip-off going back to the beastie boys vs LedZep et al...hmmm?
IF someone got my stuff for free and liked listening to it, hopefully they would at least pass it on with mention. If they outright stole the composition(s) and re-used it somehow...worse than a gut sucker punch. Karma may never be enough but I believe in the golden rule. So am I a hypocrite for using software I might not have paid for?
I guess so, if you consider that the people who wrote it need to make a living too.
I DO believe in paying for something you enjoy even if on a limited basis (like a song). I guess that now has to include software and anything else that wasn't written by me.
I DID say I wanted to purchase this software - who cares about my questionable nonsense? Times change. I'm not a digital fiend any longer. I wanted some feedback and I hit a hornets nest.
I am someone who appreciates others work and am willing to step up.
Cakewalk isn't going down because of me; if anything it will survive because it IS superior.
Lastly, if anyone ever asked me which DAW to go with (legitimately) I would have said CAKEWALK; isn't that a pro-service to them as well? I'm a supporter, not a detractor, always providing positive feedback based on my minimal usage.
I sincerely apologize to the authors of any software; they might as well be the musicians behind a song I liked, downloaded and didn't pay for.
That reminds me...
I'm a HUGE King's X fan. I recently discovered an "authorized bootleg" by a fellow known as Wally Farkas and it's totally legit. I heard a couple samples and bought/sent it to my best friend. I went to visit him and he played the whole album for us and we were blown away - this was just like a great live King's X experience. When I was leaving he said "let me make you a copy". I could let him send me a copy or find a torrent.
NO. I'll order another one.
Not only does King's X deserve the royalty, so does Wally Farkas. He's the man that made this special mix possible.
BTW - if you are a King's X fan this is a MUST HAVE: Google "King's X - "Tales from the Empire: Cleveland 6.26.92" and GET IT.
 
Please let this be a newbie forum mistake (on my part) and not a discussion on "questionable" software.
Thanks for your replies...be well
 
#23
ttoz
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 01:48:51 (permalink)
Steev
chuckebaby
Trying to justify your use of cracked software by gift wrapping it with "I buy what I like".
 
That's weak.


Spending 1000's of dollars on software you don't like is just flat out stupid.
 
Now while continuing using cracked software is undoubtedly wrong there is nothing weak about admitting you were wrong.
 
Weakness grows and festers into complete dishonesty in those who refuse to admit to owning any faults and never acknowledging making mistakes.
 
I must applaud and give kudos to e3po for honesty and integrity. And thank you, I really got a chuckle out of the topic this post.  And I'm quite confident purchasing SONAR Pro will not only be the best $200(us) investment you may ever make, it will surely give you many years of service and pleasure of creating music even if Gibson and Cakewalk can't recover.
 
And to any and all of highbrow you posers pointing fingers and pretending to be perfect and forever walk upon God's grey Earth without sin........... All I can say is ppPPPPPPPPPPPPbbbbbbbTTTTTTTTHHZZZzzzz! 


I could personally never do it, cracked stuff freaked me out for some reason, BUT, i agree with you, if one legitimately only tests it and REMOVES it, and if they like it, they BUY it, then well, no harm no foul really. But i also only condone this if there isn't a fully functional non limited demo available. For example, we get 15 days and even 30 days, well even 60 days with some products (112db plugins are 60 days).
 
Reaper is a never expiring nagware after 30 days, so anyone registering that via keygen is the very definition of a loser in my eyes. But I digress...
 
On the subject of Cakewalk, i am absolutely shocked. 
 
I moved to mac 9 years ago and use PT 12 (and you are being overly harsh on it, it's a brilliant daw, and i used sonar/cubase/Logic for many years,and decided on PT and have never been happier.. Considering i had 2 crashes in 2 years, using it 10 hrs a day with like 200 plugins, i think that speaks for itself). PT is very very fast and like Sonar, has an American way of thinking.. which differs just enough from the german stuff to make it, Sonar, and Reaper unique ( i d'ont click with reaper personally cause last i checked i didn't have a rocket science degree).
 
Anyway, i have a 2012 quad i7 little windows laptop that i have sonar X2 (legit) on, and today I decided i would get Sonar Platinum.. even though i am mostly on mac, i take my win lappie around with me and to do that, do NOT want a dongle attached that could catch on anything. (and take my precious perpetual PT12 license with it).
 
The problem is, that Sonar X2 was unstable for me. I mean, a lot. I can't even describe how much.
 
yet i have been following cake tv with interest and all the new features  - so today i went to cakewalk.com/sonar, read all about it for an hour, every bit of info, then went to buy it and i got redirected to the "announcement". I literally had no idea!
 
I think it's heartbreaking, and want to just wish all the cake guys and gals the very best, and hope all the users are happy migrating to something. 
 
I can't believe it to be honest, i am still in shock, reading all the pages. The first song i ever made was on a 486 with cakewalk dots doing the sequencing. This was in the 90's and i remember it clearly. a 40 megabyte hard drive.
 
:)
 
Good luck to all.
 
 
#24
SimpleManZ
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 02:04:42 (permalink)
Stealing a car just to joyride versus stealing a car to sell it (strip parts) is the same theft.
 
Anyway, at this point in time I will recommend against buying Sonar (unless a dealer like Sweetwater, Amazon) decides to sell it at a huge discount.
To me the biggest benefit of buying Sonar came with the future valued discounts. Same as Native Instruments Komplete and such. The first time purchase is steep but the subsequent upgrades are huge bargains.
With Sonar for instance. Melodyne came with a free Essentials, then Celemony offered the Full Studio version at a huge discount. Cakewalk has these other 3rd party stuff which are all gone now.
So for anyone looking for a "starter DAW" at this current time, Sonar is a non-starter.
#25
deswind
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 02:27:08 (permalink)
I would not.
#26
Noah330
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 02:27:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2017/12/21 13:02:28
The nice thing about being on ProTools is AAX doesn't seem to have been cracked. Ditto UAD.
I don't have a problem buying plugins but it is annoying to see some clown with a version of Sonar (or whatever) who owns Mercury asking how to route a track.


#27
LOSTinSWIRL
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 02:38:00 (permalink)
I would have to say no. The program seems to still be a little buggy and crashes for some reason every now and then. I would look into something else if I was in your shoes. I have see copies of Sonar on eBay and also though Guitar Center as well but still full price I believe. 
#28
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 02:43:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Steev 2017/12/21 11:24:38
Noah330
 
but it is annoying to see some clown with a version of Sonar (or whatever) who owns Mercury asking how to route a track.



 
So it is not possible, totally out of the realm of possibility that some 'Clown' who is totally new to the craft could have just purchased SONAR and the Mercury Bundle and was just asking an honest question ? Good to see 'Innocent until proven guilty' is alive and well, and that the benefit of the doubt is always given 
 
I guess everytime everyone here goes over the speed limit they immediately go to the nearest police station to report themselves and pay the fine?, because you know the revenue raised from traffic offences is used on fixing roads and road safety education etc etc, and you are just causing the rest of us to suffer bad roads and unsafe driving practices etc if you don't.
post edited by Matron Landslide - 2017/12/21 03:11:27

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 Happy Studio One User Since August 2015


"It's the entertainment value, the comic relief . . . plus the Software and Deals Forum"

#29
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Re: Serious question: Would it be foolish to still buy Sonar Professional ? 2017/12/21 03:32:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Steev 2017/12/21 11:25:49
If you frequent the DEALS subforum, you will see every now and then that a vendor makes an obvious mistake with the pricing on a product. The thread will be alive with people freely admitting that it surely must be a mistake, and the advice being thrown left right and center is for everyone to get in quick before the vendor realizes their mistake and fixes the price. The vendor will usually honour the purchases made under the wrong price, because that's the right thing to do. Is it the right thing to do to get in a grab it before they realize their mistake, knowing it is a mistake? is it the right thing to do to advise others to do the same? I mean we are talking about honesty and integrity here, is it only 'selective' honesty and integrity we are talking about? or should that honesty and integrity cover the whole spectrum? These vendors need to pay the bills as well you know?
 
I don't know why, but the words 'sanctimonious hypocrites' keep popping into my mind, don't know why, maybe someone can help?
 
A wise man once said . . . "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"
post edited by Matron Landslide - 2017/12/21 03:54:25

Intel i7 4790 @3.6Ghz - 32GB Ram - Windows 10 Pro 64bit - RME Fireface UFX+
Studio One 4 Professional, REAPER, CbB-(Couldnb't be Bothered)
More Plugs than Plumbers Warehouse.

 Happy Studio One User Since August 2015


"It's the entertainment value, the comic relief . . . plus the Software and Deals Forum"

#30
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