Set Master fader at 0dB

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boten
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2009/09/18 03:29:57 (permalink)

Set Master fader at 0dB

 
I've just read a comment by some mixing engineers that it is advisable to leave  master fader at 0dB during mixing. Their comment was as follows:
 
On analog studios, you can use the master fader to make the entire mix quieter. But on digital
studios, putting the master fader below 0 DB will likely act like an extremely crappy limiter. Our
mastering guy pointed this out for us by showing us our recording on an oscilloscope. Most
recordings are supposed to look like a ball. Ours looked like a box. It was basically cutting off
frequencies past a certain point. Needless to say, this doesn't sound good.
 
 
I don't really understand how this limiting effect can happen in the master bus.  I do not typically mess with the master fader during mixing but sometimes I slightly adjust the bus input.  Does anybody has a better explanation about this issue?
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    foxwolfen
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    Re:Set Master fader at 0dB 2009/09/18 06:08:29 (permalink)
    No, and I am actually a little surprised. Was this Sonar?

    If it is protools though, I actually believe it based in my experiences with AVID workstations.

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Set Master fader at 0dB 2009/09/18 07:16:39 (permalink)
    "It was basically cutting off frequencies past a certain point."

    Is that what your mastering engineer said?


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    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Set Master fader at 0dB 2009/09/18 07:49:23 (permalink)
    Pretty sure, last time I looked, a fader on the master bus changed the gain, not the threshold on a multiband brickwall limiter...

    There is that much headroom in a DAW that changing the gain on the masterbus will not make any difference to the sound coming out. Drop your masterbus down to -60dB, bounce, then boost it by 60dB and there won't be any difference (except for an increase in the noisefloor which may or may not be noticable due to the bitrate of the track).


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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Set Master fader at 0dB 2009/09/18 08:22:46 (permalink)
    I tend to have the master fader below 0db. My mixes are not brickshaped as a result. If anything... I would think the opposite is true. Keeping levels lower assures that the signal will not clip, and the compressor will not kick in to limit the upper excursion of the signal....except fot the very top of the spike and peaks....and that should be a gentle treatment.... the end result is music that has dynamics. 

    My goal is a little bit of compression to fatten & tweeze the mix and at the same time to keep the dynamics in the music. I want the music to sound good, and when I look at the wave, I want to be able to see where a verse goes to a chorus or a solo happens.  My wife was looking at one of my mixes (wave form) and pointed to the screen and asked what happens there..... because it did look different from the rest of the wave..... it was a very smooth place in the usually up & down wave....

    I am able to make a "brick" out of the mix by using a compressor (mulitband included) and pushing the levels on it. Of course, that sounds like a mess and has no dynamic range....it's just loud.
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2009/09/18 08:24:47

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    Ron Vogel
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    Re:Set Master fader at 0dB 2009/09/18 10:56:59 (permalink)
    I mix as I go; before all the tracks are laid down the output creeps up as I put down more tracks. So, I reduce the master as I go also until I actually do the final mix. When I get to that point, I reduce all the bus faders in 2db increments, and creep up the master until I'm at 0db and no red.


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    AT
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    Re:Set Master fader at 0dB 2009/09/18 11:12:00 (permalink)
    I guess I'm the odd man out.  I keep SONARs master at 0 dB and mix into that.  Of course, it is a pain w/ the amp/speaker volume, tho my old firepod at home was w/in easy reach.  I think of it akin to the master on a desk, w/ a separate monitor output.  Of course, driving digital doesn't act like an analog out, but I don't have to readjust the volume of all the channels/buses either.

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    drewfx1
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    Re:Set Master fader at 0dB 2009/09/18 12:49:40 (permalink)
    boten



    I've just read a comment by some mixing engineers that it is advisable to leave  master fader at 0dB during mixing. Their comment was as follows:

    On analog studios, you can use the master fader to make the entire mix quieter. But on digital
    studios, putting the master fader below 0 DB will likely act like an extremely crappy limiter. Our mastering guy pointed this out for us by showing us our recording on an oscilloscope. Most
    recordings are supposed to look like a ball. Ours looked like a box. It was basically cutting off frequencies past a certain point. Needless to say, this doesn't sound good.
     

    I don't really understand how this limiting effect can happen in the master bus.  I do not typically mess with the master fader during mixing but sometimes I slightly adjust the bus input.  Does anybody has a better explanation about this issue?

    I can think of no mathmatical reason why this would be. The master fader simply scales down a number; it's a very simple digital process, and can't introduce too much distortion, and that only at the least significant (quietest) bits.

    Of course, if you reduce the level to an extremely low level, so that your entire signal is only represented by, say, 8-10 bits, and then boost the level way up in the analog domain to compensate, you will get tons of low level square wave distortion. Maybe this is what they are talking about? But that's due to having the overall output level way too lowand not using enough bits to represent your signal; it doesn't matter if it's from the master fader or track/bus faders being too low. If you're peaking at -70db, and turn up on the analog side +60db to compensate, you're going to get some distortion. 

    drewfx
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    boten
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    Re:Set Master fader at 0dB 2009/09/19 02:41:40 (permalink)
    Thank guys, I wasn't able to explain that statement either. Gain in my mind is just a multiplying operation on the incoming signal gain, not a frequency filter. This came out of a mixing section of the Indie Musician Survival Guide I happened to read. Go figure...
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    Lanceindastudio
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    Re:Set Master fader at 0dB 2009/09/19 07:02:08 (permalink)
    this is **** on any halfway decent DAW

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