Seven tracks, one volume...?

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hellogoodbye
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2011/02/13 07:22:31 (permalink)

Seven tracks, one volume...?

I know I should actually learn how to master and so on, but I don't have time for it right now nor interest in it, really... The thing is: my son has recorded 7 songs in Sonar (over a period of a few months) and he wants to burn them on a cd for others to enjoy. Of course they all sound quite different... The biggest problem is the overall volume though: you don't want listerers to reach for the volume knob at the start of every song...!

So my very simple question is: what is the most easy way to get all those songs to sound a bit more equal...? Simply changing the master volume slider in every project before exporting the songs as a wav doesn't do the trick, really... I hope someone has a very simple answer, which isn't something like 'Forget about it' or 'Learn to master, you lazy moron!' or 'Remix it all, please!'

I've been making music for quite some years now, but I personally only make songs one at a time and never made a compilation of them, so how songs sound in relation to each other has never ever been something I had to think about... until now.

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    giankap
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/13 07:28:21 (permalink)
    so if i understood you have one session consisted by 7 songs?

    sincerely,

    Ioannis

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    #2
    hellogoodbye
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/13 07:51:42 (permalink)
    No, I have 7 seperate songs. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I have 7 songs, recorded over a longer period and they don't sound as 'one' as they need to for the cd (obviously, I'd almost say).

    In the meantime I saw a Youtube movie which advices to make wavs of all songs and import them all into one new project, which will make it easier to check if seperate songs sound a bit more the same volume wise and to correct things using the volume of each track but also Boost11 and so on.... That's one nice tip already.

    BTW I also think I have no other option than to remix every project to make at least the basics of each songs a bit more similar... It's not only the overall volume that's different, but some tracks have loud drums and others have almost hidden drums and things like that... I think I will have to remix things a bit to make them sound a bit more similar in that regard... And after that I should make wavs and use a new project to make sure overall volume becomes more similar... Right...?

    Pity there isn't a simply plugin that can do all this.
    post edited by hellogoodbye - 2011/02/13 07:54:11

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    giankap
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/13 07:58:58 (permalink)
    this is one way of doing it. the other way is to mixdown each song and re-import the mixed wav again in the project. solo the new track and normalize it from the audio proccess window. then just add sonar's limiter and give a -4 db threshhold and -0.2 db ceiling. then you have to again export the mix. but you have your song  ready.

    doing that to every song will maybe cost you 20 min. but you are ready to burn a cd. (don't forget to mix in 16 bit - 44100Hz, the standard cd quality)
    post edited by giankap - 2011/02/13 07:59:59

    sincerely,

    Ioannis

    Windows - some Dual Core CPU - a little bit of RAM - not so bad soundcard - i think it's called Sonar - a silver mixer with colorful knobs - black speaker monitors - my ears

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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/13 08:27:57 (permalink)
    The easiest solution (if you really are happy with the mixes and finish) is to normalize to something like -0,5 - -2 Db. If you make it hotter your possible MP3 conversion might suffer.

    The longer way described most likely gives at least a little better result IMO.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/13 08:52:41 (permalink)
    I use the normalizing method.  Be sure the faders are up on the song before you export the wave. Then use a free wave editor like Audacity or Wavepad to normalize them. That is the easiest way to bring them all to the same approximate levels.

    then they are burnable and the listener won't have to reach for the volume on each tune.

    After you do the normalization... burn 1 test CD to check... all you need to do is listen to 10 to 15 seconds of each tune....long enough to hit the verses. If they are all about the same level... burn them.... if NOT, note which tunes are too low or too hot. You can use the editors to lowed by 1db at a time or raise by 1 db at a time until they are right....

    repeat the process as many times as needed to get it right.

    I find that the normalize one time is all that is needed on my songs....

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    #6
    Jamz0r
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/13 15:25:47 (permalink)
    I'm always surprised when people still suggest normalizing audio... 

    Simply mix the songs to your liking, then export them all to 24bit wavs.  Then import all songs into a new project, apply a limiter to each, then adjust each song while comparing them all back and forth to each other.  This is also a good time to do some fine EQ to make sure all songs are together sonically, to remove any issues with any being boomy, mid heavy, etc.
    You don't want the listener reaching for the tone/EQ knobs either!  Export to 16bit wavs, burn CD.
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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/13 17:16:33 (permalink)
    Here is an approach that I picked up from attending a mastering session with one of Melbourne's best mastering engineers.

    I assume you have 7 mixes from these songs but they are not fully mastered as yet. eg these mixes should not really contain any mastering within them.

    Out of the seven tunes try and find one that you would class as a reference. It should be a track that contains the best mix so far, probably most instrumentation, biggest sound etc. This track is often easy to pick as there is usually one that stands out and you can call 'The One'

    Setup a separate mastering session, import this track and master it first.  Also at this point it is not a bad idea to import a commercial well mixed and mastered track in the same style and genre as your first ref track. This will often keep you more honest and true to a well mastered result. Switch back and forth from your ref track to the commercial track to make sure you are moving in the right direction.

    Once you are happy you don't need the commercial track so much but now you should have a well mastered first track and you can call this your ref track.

    What you don't do is run all your tracks through the same mastering processes as you did for the ref track because they wont apply to the other tracks especially if the others are all quite different.

    You need to setup each track in turn into a fresh mastering session but now make sure your mastered ref track is present sitting on another track and obviously getting no processing. As you master the others, you switch the others back and forth and compare them to your ref track. That way you may not be able to make all the others sound exactly like your ref track but at least they will all be similar. You should aim to get all your rms levels very close to each other as well and to the ref track.

    Now once you have mastered all 7 of them create another session and just import all of your 7 mastered tracks one after the other and try moving them around to get the order but also check the tonalities of them as they go from one to the other. You may have to tweak the odd one after you do this as well.

    Mastering is not just about making a track sound great and loud. It is also about getting a bunch of tracks to agree in sound and also its about the order. Even the time between tracks is important. Tracks that end abruptly often need a slightly longer silence to the next track. Tracks that fade don't need as much silence time between etc.





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    giankap
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/13 17:24:40 (permalink)
    Here is an approach that I picked up from attending a mastering session with one of Melbourne's best mastering engineers. I assume you have 7 mixes from these songs but they are not fully mastered as yet. eg these mixes should not really contain any mastering within them. Out of the seven tunes try and find one that you would class as a reference. It should be a track that contains the best mix so far, probably most instrumentation, biggest sound etc. This track is often easy to pick as there is usually one that stands out and you can call 'The One' Setup a separate mastering session, import this track and master it first. Also at this point it is not a bad idea to import a commercial well mixed and mastered track in the same style and genre as your first ref track. This will often keep you more honest and true to a well mastered result. Switch back and forth from your ref track to the commercial track to make sure you are moving in the right direction. Once you are happy you don't need the commercial track so much but now you should have a well mastered first track and you can call this your ref track. What you don't do is run all your tracks through the same mastering processes as you did for the ref track because they wont apply to the other tracks especially if the others are all quite different. You need to setup each track in turn into a fresh mastering session but now make sure your mastered ref track is present sitting on another track and obviously getting no processing. As you master the others, you switch the others back and forth and compare them to your ref track. That way you may not be able to make all the others sound exactly like your ref track but at least they will all be similar. You should aim to get all your rms levels very close to each other as well and to the ref track. Now once you have mastered all 7 of them create another session and just import all of your 7 mastered tracks one after the other and try moving them around to get the order but also check the tonalities of them as they go from one to the other. You may have to tweak the odd one after you do this as well. Mastering is not just about making a track sound great and loud. It is also about getting a bunch of tracks to agree in sound and also its about the order. Even the time between tracks is important. Tracks that end abruptly often need a slightly longer silence to the next track. Tracks that fade don't need as much silence time between etc.


    Oh my god!!! did you even read what he asked in the first place? he just wants to do something as fast as possible and he clearly states that at this point he is not interested in any mastering class. and you just wrote down a hymn of the importancy of mastering plus a walkthrough of mastering by leaving out the mastering proccess!

    using your method he has to spend hours of mastering in order for him to have similar sound to each track but you forgot to mention the most important of all. the mastering process!

    sincerely,

    Ioannis

    Windows - some Dual Core CPU - a little bit of RAM - not so bad soundcard - i think it's called Sonar - a silver mixer with colorful knobs - black speaker monitors - my ears

    some work
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    giankap
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/13 17:28:06 (permalink)
    Here is an approach that I picked up from attending a mastering session with one of Melbourne's best mastering engineers.


    did those mastering enginners got into details of how to master like you did? or it was about the importancy of mastering?

    sincerely,

    Ioannis

    Windows - some Dual Core CPU - a little bit of RAM - not so bad soundcard - i think it's called Sonar - a silver mixer with colorful knobs - black speaker monitors - my ears

    some work
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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/13 18:18:00 (permalink)
    My response was in fact a direct answer to the OP question and that was a process that works for getting a group of tracks to sound more coherent and flow together well.

    Yes I did leave out the actual mastering processes as he does not want to get into that. But for any interested obviously the actual mastering processes often involved three processors. Dynamics, EQ and limiting. Not always in that order either, but the actual mastering processes are more complex than the scope of this thread here.

    He could just set all the tracks up and automate their relative volumes to each other so they all meter and sound at the same volume. He could bounce all those and then perhaps limit all of them just to bring up the overall level once the individual tracks were level matched.

    There is no quick fix or quick way to do it. If you are going to send out a CD that contains 7 tracks from 7 completely different sources then you have to put some work in order for the end result to be acceptable.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2011/02/13 18:24:29

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    jamesg1213
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/15 14:26:52 (permalink)
    Jamz0r


    I'm always surprised when people still suggest normalizing audio... 

    Simply mix the songs to your liking, then export them all to 24bit wavs.  Then import all songs into a new project, apply a limiter to each, then adjust each song while comparing them all back and forth to each other.  This is also a good time to do some fine EQ to make sure all songs are together sonically, to remove any issues with any being boomy, mid heavy, etc.
    You don't want the listener reaching for the tone/EQ knobs either!  Export to 16bit wavs, burn CD.


    That's pretty much how I do it, except I use clip gain envelopes on each song. Jump back and forth between the tracks and adjust to suit.



     
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    #12
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/18 13:36:05 (permalink)
    I work in exactly the same way as Jamz0r, but without the limiter on each track.

    I run this into my "mastering chain" of a few T-Racks Singles.

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    Norrie
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    Re:Seven tracks, one volume...? 2011/02/18 18:40:48 (permalink)
    Same as above for me :)

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