Helpful ReplyShopping for reference monitors - again

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batsbrew
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/17 14:59:25 (permalink)
bit,
this:
 
http://unityaudioproducts.co.uk/the-rock.php
 
good enough for josh homme
 

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#31
brconflict
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/17 16:51:05 (permalink)
bitflipper
Bob Fox, a one-time forum regular who doesn't come around anymore, replaced his Yamahas with a pair of used Mackie HR824s, and they actually solved some resonance issues he'd had in his studio. I got to hear them side by side, and the Mackies were a noticeable improvement, even before testing. The passive radiator seems to offset the problems usually associated with rear-ported speakers.
 
Everybody tells me, though, to look for the old ones, before they started making them in China.
 
Published specs for the Mark 2 model say they go down to 37 Hz at -1.5 dB. For my kind of music, that's good enough to not need a sub. That's my plan - to save some money by not having to replace the sub.


And quite honestly, anything below 37Hz, most people could just roll off and use some headphones to get that low for reference, if necessary. I do Mastering as well, and unless I'm working on something that requires super-low frequency, many times I roll off the low end around 30Hz, saving some compression. 

As far as sound quality of the Mk2's I can't say (never heard them), but I'd hope they sound just as good. The only gripe I've got with the later products is reliability of their subs. But the build of the newer MK2's looks very similar. I wouldn't be surprised if they merely compromised the USA vs. Chinese manufacturing standards, keeping the same basic design. Everything aside from the baffle and power switch etc. seems similar to me, including the transparent tweeter mask/lens to soften harshness. 

So, if you go Mk2, obviously go with a good return policy from Sweetwater, and see how they do.

Brian
 
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#32
Sycraft
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/17 16:52:04 (permalink)
bitflipper
Thanks for the Emotiva tip, Sycraft. It's a manufacturer I wasn't aware of. I'm guessing they started up sometime after 2008, the last time I did an extensive survey of product offerings.

 
They are pretty new to pro audio. They started as an amp company, famous for making really big powerful amps for way less than normal. They've expanded and changed lineups (big amps are still their mainstay) and got in to pro audio speakers not long ago. I don't know anything about their pro speakers, I own their amp and processor, since I use seperates not powered monitors.
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bitflipper
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/17 23:46:48 (permalink)
I've been reading some gushing reviews of the Stealth 8.
 
Speaker reviews are often hard to glean actionable information from, with vague references to piccolo harmonics and such. Then they sometimes veer totally off the rails, with declarations that you have to let the power cable burn in or how 23 KHz really makes cymbals sizzle. I found a few of those in my searches.
 
But among the legit Stealth reviews, however, all have made the same point: these are comparable to speakers costing 4 to 10 times as much. I am really tempted to give them a try. With a 30-day money back guarantee it's not that great a risk. It won't be this week, though. I still don't have a DAW.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#34
Resonant Serpent
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/18 11:30:57 (permalink)
I'd stick with Adam or Dynaudio. Avoid the Mackie mk2 series. I have a pair, and they've been a mess since day one. Both of them had to have the switches on the back replaced because they failed, which sent huge amounts of horrible static every time they went out. It's not like I regularly used the switches. Also, I ended up swapping one with a mate of mine because both of us seemed to get monitors that were not matched. A problem that was actually advertised by Mackie as being solved with the mk2 design. After the last repair, I went back to my original V8's, and put the mackies with the tv. Also, I found them almost impossible to mix on. I was constantly tweaking even after having them for six months. With my V8's, the tweaking is minimal. 

A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far blackness of the night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world. - Aldo Leopold
#35
brconflict
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/18 11:49:55 (permalink)
bitflipper
 
Then they sometimes veer totally off the rails, with declarations that you have to let the power cable burn in or how 23 KHz really makes cymbals sizzle. I found a few of those in my searches.


I think the power cable burn-in is funny. Although I wouldn't disqualify that a power-cable "burn-in" isn't valid, the benefits would be so minimal, you'd likely need sensitive measuring equipment to see the benefit, but probably won't hear it. I would imagine playing the speakers for 100 hours to let the crossover caps adjust and to loosen the drivers would make a more noticeable difference. I use a Pass Labs X-350 amp for Mastering. Although I spent $100 on a hospital grade power cord, mainly to just dress it up, in the manual Nelson Pass explains that the supplied power cord is just fine, and the power supply is going to clean up the power to meet the needs of the amp. He makes no mention about burning it in, although he does recommend the amp to be on for an hour before listening for the best quality.

So, I do chuckle a bit when people start going down the path of power cords, and how much benefit they can bring when treated correctly vs. the quality of the lines coming into the building. Most experts would tell you that while your wiring can make things worse, not better, and you're much more likely to lose detail through the connection points.



Brian
 
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#36
bitflipper
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/18 12:07:51 (permalink)
RS, I assume by "V8" you're referring to the KRK VXT8?
 
Those are certainly a viable candidate, and the least-expensive on my list at $1200 for a pair. A friend of mine locally has them and has invited me to come listen to them, which I intend to do before making my decision.
 
I do like Dynaudios a lot. It's amazing the sound that comes out of those little guys. But at $2k they are at the top end of my desired budget, so if I can get by spending $500 to $800 less, that's a strong consideration. Same with the ADAM A8X - I already know I'll like them as they're very similar to the P-11A's I've been using for 8 years. But also $2K.
 
I've scratched the Mackies from my list, just because of all the failure reports I'm reading. The switch on the back should last forever. 
 
Bat: yes, that Rock II from Unity Audio is excellent. But they're also 3 grand for a pair. I still have to buy a computer, too.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#37
bitflipper
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/18 12:19:58 (permalink)
Brian: yes, anybody who knows anything about power supplies will laugh at the notion that power cords are an important part of the system. Sure, they need to meet minimal requirements for ruggedness and resistance, but beyond that it's just silly to think they have any impact on sound quality. You might as well claim that power quality depends on the type of water behind a hydroelectric dam.
 
But you can pay $2500 for one if you're sufficiently gullible and ignorant.
 
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#38
LLyons
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/18 13:13:25 (permalink)
First,  sorry to see that the impetus to this is theft.   I agree that listening in a store is not a good place to make a decision on something that really comes down to what will help you translate what your mind wants to hear, and what you think you are hearing - hope that made sense.  However,  I would encourage you to listen to the S8's  wherever you can just to see.  I have - I went into a store to pick up a set of DT1770's for tracking, got them and now I am saving for the S8's - next month.  Please keep in mind, I do not own them yet. 
 
When I run across a good engineer, who has not bought a product they are referencing, it makes me less open to seeing for myself.  However, when they buy something for themselves, it interests me.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSxoYGPdETU
 
My ears are an odd duck, but I can actually understand (at less of a charged level, personally), what the individual on the cell phone is surprised about.    
 
I hope the very best of luck on your search ahead..
 
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#39
batsbrew
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/18 14:15:19 (permalink)
Don't miss my post.
Could be a big oversight

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#40
Sycraft
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/18 15:50:04 (permalink)
bitflipper
I've been reading some gushing reviews of the Stealth 8.
 
Speaker reviews are often hard to glean actionable information from, with vague references to piccolo harmonics and such. Then they sometimes veer totally off the rails, with declarations that you have to let the power cable burn in or how 23 KHz really makes cymbals sizzle. I found a few of those in my searches.
 
But among the legit Stealth reviews, however, all have made the same point: these are comparable to speakers costing 4 to 10 times as much. I am really tempted to give them a try. With a 30-day money back guarantee it's not that great a risk. It won't be this week, though. I still don't have a DAW.



I hate audio reviews, they tend to be completely useless and people are WAY too in to snake oil. I usually check them only to see if they noticed any flaws. Otherwise, I'm more impressed by data which is something Emotiva is willing to provide. They don't give ANSI/CEA-2034 data, but almost nobody does (requires a lot of gear to acquire) but gives a lot of other useful info.
 
Emotiva is reputed for punching above their weight with their amps, making massive amps that compete with the likes of Krell for 10% of the price. If they can do similar with their speakers, well then they are a pretty worthwhile brand to own. Their speakers I don't have any experience with, however. I personally use SVS, another company known for hitting above their weight (they do passives though).
#41
bitflipper
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/19 10:58:53 (permalink)
batsbrew
Don't miss my post.
Could be a big oversight

I didn't miss it. I looked them up and read reviews, all positive. But as I noted above, they're 3 grand for a pair, beyond my budget. Same for the Opals suggested by deswind. Great speakers, but I still have to buy a computer, too.
 
I am quite intrigued by the Emotiva Stealth 8. Glowing reviews, incredible specs, great price. The review in Recording Magazine compares them to speakers costing 5x as much.
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#42
thepianist65
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/20 16:26:17 (permalink)
Reading these posts with great interest. RE: the review of the Stealth 8, it had my adrenaline flowing until I read the sentence about how the reviewers friend preferred the older speakers for most jazz and classical.
Since I do a lot of jazz (in addition to pop/rock/blues, oldies, etc.), it would seem perhaps these monitors wouldn't be as good for me to upgrade to.
Not that I was really looking, but some day I want to upgrade my budget speakers (KRK Rokit) and see how the other half lives....
I'm learning a lot just keeping track of the various suggestions, etc. Keep 'em coming. Good luck getting everything back in your studio, Bit. Really stinks to be robbed, frankly you seem to be handling it better than I would.

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#43
streckfus
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/20 16:42:39 (permalink)
Probably a step down from the sort of monitors you're considering (if price is any indication, which of course to a certain extent it is), but I recently picked up a pair of the Yamaha HS8 monitors and I'm really digging them. (Then again, my previous monitors were Alesis M1 Active MK2s so while decent startups, there was plenty of room for improvement.)
 
I was seriously considering the Focal Alpha line but they didn't have any of the Alpha 80s at GC when I demoed them all, and the HS8s, to my ears anyway, blew the Alpha 65s out of the water. 38Hz - 30kHz according to their specs, rear-ported. 
 
The only downside is a bit of a hiss when there's no audio going through them.

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#44
bitflipper
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/20 20:26:21 (permalink)
Looks like I'll have to lower my expectations. Reading the insurance settlement letter, it basically says all I get is $6,800 to cover nearly $15,000 in losses. I've already spent $5,500 and still don't have a computer. Another grand will go to my new steel door, and all I'll be able to afford after that are some instrument cables.
 
Maybe I should be looking at some nice headphones...


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#45
Sycraft
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/20 22:00:41 (permalink)
Insurance companies are jerks. The deprecation schedule they run on some things are totally unrealistic. While it probably won't do any good, fight back against that amount. If they are underpaying you for stuff, push back. In particular if you can show items, like software or something, that keep the same price year after year argue against the deprecation. If it doesn't wear out, and doesn't go down in price, then a deprecation schedule is BS.
 
can't hurt to try.
#46
batsbrew
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/21 10:38:26 (permalink)
A pair of jbl 305's wouldn't cost more than a good set of cans, they are really good monitors for the price

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#47
Resonant Serpent
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/21 16:02:06 (permalink)
The KRK V8s I use are the very first model. They've held up incredibly well and I really like the midrange response. If they went out, I'd replace them with the newer model. 

A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far blackness of the night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world. - Aldo Leopold
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Resonant Serpent
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/21 16:04:42 (permalink)
Also, I've had great luck buying from Zzounds and their Open Box prices. I've acquired some really good gear cheap.
 
 

A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far blackness of the night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world. - Aldo Leopold
#49
Kev999
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/21 18:04:42 (permalink)
Sycraft
Insurance companies are jerks...

 
True, but insurance policies differ a lot. I once claimed for some stolen photographic equipment (Pentax SLR camera and several lenses) and I was pleasantly surprised at the outcome. When I submitted the claim I didn't even expect it to be successful as the items were not stolen from my house. I had lent them to my niece who was a university student, sharing a house with other students and their house got burgled. Naturally they didn't have any insurance. Also most of the stolen items were used when I originally purchased them. The insurance company required me to supply receipts and luckily I still had them. They arranged for a photographic supplier (Jessops) to send me the nearest equivalent current version of each item. In each case it was an upgrade, as SLR technology had advanced a lot during the 1990s.

I doubt whether my current home & contents insurance policy is as good as that now. Back then I was probably overinsured.

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#50
bitflipper
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/21 22:30:46 (permalink)
Resonant Serpent
The KRK V8s I use are the very first model. They've held up incredibly well and I really like the midrange response. If they went out, I'd replace them with the newer model. 



I hated the Rokit line, but the VXT products are a significant step up. At the moment, I am seriously considering the VXT8, if for no other reason than they are the least-expensive option ($1200 vs. $2000 for the ADAMs). I've got to get over to Studio Lawajava and give them a listen. 
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#51
Zo
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/21 23:06:01 (permalink)
bitflipper
When I got my ADAM P-11As and subwoofer in 2008, I thought I was set for life. I loved those ADAMS. They were like a trusted friend you could always count on to tell you the truth.
 
Sadly, some miscreants decided my stuff should be theirs, and carted them off. Everything; keyboards, amps, microphones, guitar. Those m******f******s cleaned me out. The good news is insurance will cover most of it, so I'm cheering myself up by shopping.
 
Replacing stage amps and keyboards is easy. Studio monitors, not as much fun. Most powered speakers I'd really want are too expensive, so I'm looking at what's out there that's cheaper than my old system. The old system cost me about $2700, but I'd like to keep the replacement cost under $2000 to compensate for my deductible and depreciation.
 
To that end, I'm planning on getting 8" woofers this time so that I won't need a sub. There are some interesting new products out there as well as recent updates to old classics.
 
Here's my current list of candidates - any comments from users (e.g. noise or reliability issues) are welcome, as well as any suggestions for products I've not considered. The main prerequisite - other than price - is solid performance below 45 Hz to avoid having to buy a sub. 
 
1. Mackie HR824mk2 $1400 (pr)
    Pros: Lots of power, non-ported, -1.5dB @ 37 Hz, wide sweet spot (assuming that's really a plus)
    Cons: paper cone, large heavy enclosure
 
2. Presonus R80 $1000 (pr)
    Pros: Kevlar woofer, ribbon tweeter, adequate power, cheap
    Cons: Presonus isn't known for speakers, no tolerances given for frequency response
 
3. Focal Alpha 80 $1100 (pr)
    Pros: -3dB @ 35 Hz
    Cons: paper cone, may be a little underpowered, have only heard their high-end products (they're great!)
 
 
 


Sorry to hear that homie ...

I owned your exact set up , and believe me those were the best adam monitors imho ( acurate and natural versus new one and sx expensive line)

All yor propositions will be down grade ...

I tried everything and ended up with quested v2108 ( tried event opal sm9b , s3x s2x , pmc , psi , trident ect ...)

My advice , the best bang for the buck : event opal

In your budget : quested sr 7 or 8 don t know how much in usa .... Those are just beauties

Even a pair of 8040 will be better than those mentionned ....

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#52
bitflipper
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/22 11:02:15 (permalink)
Thanks for the recommendation, Zo. I value your opinion, and I have no doubt those Quested monitors are top-notch.
 
But they're also $6,500 for a pair. I only got $6,800 in the insurance settlement! 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#53
Pragi
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/23 04:24:34 (permalink)
Probably it´s a "no-go" for you,
to order monitor speaker  in germany,
but if not:
The nubert nupro A 200 and the A 300 are imo very good
monitor speaker for around 700 or 1000 bucks a pair.
Those monitors stand in my and many  other studios in germany.
The Nupros are cheaper than compareable monitors cause 
they are sold by the manufacturer direct.
 
 
For a room til 16 square meter the Nupro A 200 are complete 
sufficient, no sub needed.
Found only reviews in german (all very good) here a link to one translation:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/nubert4/1.html
 
http://www.nubert.de/nupro-serie/420/
post edited by Pragi - 2016/05/23 08:18:31
#54
bitflipper
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/23 09:38:59 (permalink)
Thanks, Pragi. Yet another speaker manufacturer I was unaware of, and by far the most technologically interesting one.
 
These feature a novel amplifier design that I'd expect to have a very good SNR, since the only analog components are the final drivers. Everything up till then is all-digital. You probably hear no hiss from them, nicht wahr?
 
I could see this being especially attractive to ITB EDM folks, who'd need no audio interface at all as long as their laptop had S/PDIF, giving them high-quality audio with minimal hardware. Even without S/PDIF, they could still use the USB connection, although unfortunately (and suprisingly) the USB input is limited to 16 bits and 44.1 KHz. Not as big a limitation as it sounds like, though.
 
I'd love to hear them, but Düsseldorf is a bit far to drive for me.
 
 
 
 


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#55
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Re: Shopping for reference monitors - again 2016/05/23 10:39:48 (permalink)
Bitflipper:
I'd love to hear them, but Düsseldorf is a bit far to drive for me.

 
That´s what I thought !
There may be a forum member in  North California  who ownes  a pair of Nupro´s ?
I read in the Nubert forum about such a member, but don´t remember the name.
The Nupro A 200 are not specialists for EDM.
I  connected my pair via spdif with the focusrite saffire .
Easy handling and the monitors turn on and off with the saffire pro 40 -
just one switch and move  for both.
The Nupro A 200 sound, imo, compareable to the Adam S 1 x,
which I compared with a friends pair of these nice monitors.
The heights of the Adams sound a bit more "realistic" and present, not much.
The bass frequencies of the Nupro´s are  more direct and present,
but not as dominating as you supposed .
It´s  always hard to descripe sound in words,
hope you can understand what I mean.
Anyhow, if there is no chance that you can hear this monitors,
they are of course "out" .
 
P.S. And yes, no hiss.
 
 
 
 
 
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