AnsweredShouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume?

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Pastacrow
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2015/02/09 06:28:20 (permalink)

Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume?

I am really confused at the moment! While using Platinum, Concrete Limiter only appears to have an effect on the 'gain' of a track and not the track 'volume'. Is this the intended behaviour? Please forgive me if I am ignorant of how it is designed to function.
 
If I drive a track volume above 0db, Concrete Limiter will not reduce the level. It will only do so when I overdrive the gain. Inserting a brickwall limiter into the track FX will not limit the overall volume either. Consequently, it would seem that there is effectively no way to limit the overall volume of an individual track. Am I missing something? Or is it because of the amount of Cabernet Sauvignon I had with my meal tonight?

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 06:51:02 (permalink)
Inserting a brickwall limiter into the track FX will not limit the overall volume either

 
Erm, yes it will, depending on what controls are exposed by the specific plugin.
 
Can't speak for the Concrete Limiter as I'm a) not at my DAW and b) don't use it very much.
 
BUT  - you shouldn't be driving your tracks that close to 0dB in any case.
If they're too loud, turn them down and everything else with it. (Grouping faders is a good idea)
 

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Pastacrow
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 06:58:03 (permalink)
Normally I would never ever drive my tracks that hard. However, this is an experiment brought on by some behaviour I encountered on a project that made me wonder what CL was doing. 
 
I totally agree with you - that a Limiter should work on the overall volume. I have a little video of what it is currently doing ...  http://youtu.be/xSY2jg1wtRQ
 

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Pastacrow
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 07:15:40 (permalink)
Off to bed now, I'll check back in the morning to see if anyone can add further explanation. 

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John
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 08:04:41 (permalink)
One thing you need to be sure of is, is the PC post FX bin or not? If not it can't be in control of the volume.

Best
John
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Pastacrow
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 15:57:39 (permalink)
Yes, I have it set to post FX bin - which is why I'm baffled.  

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 16:05:34 (permalink)
A number of limiters work with auto gain makeup. Meaning as you reduce the threshold, the actual volume will go up - with the peaks being increasingly reduced, the RMS volume can actually go up. Perhaps this is what's happening?
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teego
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 16:12:11 (permalink)
The reason the volume fader is peaking the output is because it is after the limiters in the signal flow. If you look at the signal flow chart for Sonar you will see that the volume fader is post effects and post PC. Even if you have PC set post effects it is still pre volume fader. The gain fader is actually pre everything.

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Pastacrow
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 16:13:29 (permalink)
I hear what you are saying teego, but then how can I ever limit the overall track volume? (Apart from manually keeping my eye on the meter for peaks. I would really like a limiter as the last item in the chain. 

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teego
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 16:25:23 (permalink)
I am not sure I understand what you are trying to do but if you want to reduce the volume with the limiter pull the output fader down on the limiter or just reduce the volume coming in with the gain fader.  I generally use a limiter to limit the peaks, if I want to lower the volume I just turn it down before it gets to the limiter at the gain fader or any effects output that may be ahead of the limiter.

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Pastacrow
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 16:42:08 (permalink)
What originally prompted my question is that I had Addictive Drums with kick and snare assigned to individual outs - a track each in Platinum. Meters were all fine (under 0db). When I panned the (mono) snare slightly off centre - the volume meters on that track went over the limit - I assume because of my pan law settings. However, shouldn't the CL on that track stop that occurring, as the PC was in Post FX mode?

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teego
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 16:44:31 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby Anderton 2015/02/09 16:47:26
I went and watched your video again and you basically answer your own question. If you notice when you have the volume fader at  0 db and adjusted the  gain fader for an increase the limiter did exactly what it was supposed to do.
It wasn't until you increased the volume fader that it appeared that the limiter wasn't working, in reality it was still doing its job but you increased the output after the limiter. Also since the volume fader is after the limiter you can turn it down to reduce overall volume, use the limiter to smooth out peaks and use the volume fader to reduce volume to the bus.

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teego
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 16:48:18 (permalink)
No, the track pan control is also post effects bin and PC , it is actually post volume fader. The easiest fix for what you describe would be to reduce the track volume fader, if you want to use the limiter stick it in there and leave the volume fader at 0 or lower.

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Pastacrow
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 16:51:22 (permalink)
Ooops, I need to read your latest reply first

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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 16:53:43 (permalink)
Pan and volume are post fx.
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teego
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 16:58:00 (permalink)
You answered your own question again. The panning law did increase the output and since the pan control is post limiter it could not help you tame it. You would have to go back to your limiter and bring the limit down with the output fader to do it there or simply bring the volume fader down. Any adjustment you make to volume or pan is after the PC or effects bin.

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Pastacrow
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 17:03:47 (permalink)
Thanks teego and sanderxpanda. It was the pan which was particularly throwing me. I guess to tame any errant peaks which slip through (as happened in my original project) I would need to rely on the bus limiter to catch what had gone over on the track. Thanks for your help.

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#17
teego
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Re: Shouldn't Concrete Limiter be able to tame the track volume? 2015/02/09 17:22:55 (permalink)
You are welcome but you can and should tame peaks at the track with a limiter. just leave the volume fader at 0 or less. I think if you go to the help file and look at the signal flow chart it will clear a lot of it up for you. Also as Bristol Jonesy said above you shouldn't be driving your tracks that hot , I think most people try to keep tracks peaking at around the-12 to -10 db mark  because all your tracks are summed to the master bus .

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