Sibelius and Sonar Notation

This should fan the flames about the argument whether Sonar needs better notation or whether users should buy a separation notation program.
 
It seems Sibelius is in a bit of disarray, and Finale may be the only product left.
 
http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2012/08/at-sibelius-software-the-last-staff-turn-out-the-lights.html
 
This is disheartening as I just read a great review of Sibelius 7 and was planning to buy it.

it's business.. regardless of how you feel about the company..

less people are dealing with the notation side , I mean if your classically trained etc.. fair enough BUT a fair few people don't use notion in the main (I would if say I got to the point to use string players etc)

I'm sure the coders can walk into another job elsewhere.. hopefully it's coders who are muso's and not just coders.. a few companies who will remain nameless got in serious stook with such buggy code... think samplers.. nuff said..

Fog

, I mean if your classically trained etc.. 

...Or play jazz, are a studio musician, compose for media, arrange music, teach music...   Classical music is the smallest part of the equation.

There's also Notion.   http://www.notionmusic.com/

I can't say I'm suprised about it. Finale was geared for the education side since the early 90s. It may be the Sibelious never took hold of that market which is huge as far as notation programs go.
 
Come to think of it. I had a friend who had a studio at the time and he had it for a short while. None of them knew how to read though. They continued to work on their MC500mkIIs. To be fair, the MC500's were probably more capable at the time.

vintagevibe

Fog

, I mean if your classically trained etc.. 

...Or play jazz, are a studio musician, compose for media, arrange music, teach music... 

... or anything else really.

Just because you use PRV doesn't rule out using SV too.  If you've got two screens, having both views open together can give a better perspective, particularly with PVR zoomed in and SV zoomed out.

djwayne
  
 
In the rock music category, reading music is akin to using cheat sheets.

tell that to Joe Satriani & Steve Vai (or countless others for that matter)

Notion is supposed to have an announcement "soon" about a release date for Notion 4. Like so many such situations, "soon" has become a very elastic term that stretches to accomodate pretty an entire calendar year.
 
But I own version 3, and hope to see 4 incorporate better VST and MIDI functionality. I too prefer score view, and if Notion does a good enough job of it I might find myself with fewer ties to Sonar. If Sonar is going to ignore notation, then notation users will have to ignore Sonar. I accept the fact that many Sonar users couldn't care less about notation. So be it.
 

That only comes with practice and talent.

Here's a guy that doesn't need written music to perform... watch this and tell me he's not a musician !!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Legz2nbxpmc
 
 
 
.

djwayne


Here's a guy that doesn't need written music to perform... watch this and tell me he's not a musician !!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Legz2nbxpmc
 
 
 
.

Gee DJWayne,
 
who ever said anything about musicians that can read music, needing it to perform ?.
 
Oh ... must have been you ?.
 
I think I understand where you're coming from ... you can't read music can you ?.
So you grasp at non-sensical arguments in order to defend the self proclaimed title of musiciam because you somehow feel it's threatened.
 
The fact of the matter is, great musicians who CAN read music, do NOT need it to perform, and any suggestion that they do is nonsense.
 
The other fact is, just as with lots of things besides music - if you can not only use the instruments, but also read and write their particular 'language' or 'notation', it give you a distinct advantage.
 
Just a couple of examples:
Language: A person who can speak fluent English, but can't read or write in English, is not a master in the language.
  It doesn't stop them being a speaker ... so long as they never need to read a speech :-)
 
Carpentry: A person who can swing a hammer and saw straighter than most, but can't read a plan or a ruler.
  It doesn't stop them making things, just as long as they never need to read a plan or measure something ... NOT a master carpenter.
 
I could go on, but really there is no point.
 
Did you ever consider that in the process of learning to read music, you'll actually learn a lot of other things that WILL make you a better, more capable musician, other than the fact of just being able to read/interpret the notes and timing off a sheet of paper ?.
 
Somehow, I doubt you've considered that.
It's true though ... just ask anyone who's done the lessons and has learned.
It should be common sense to understand that someone who can read and write the language of their craft or instrument is at a great advantage compared to if you took that ability away from them. It's a simple fact, and applies not only to music, but to a lot of things.
 
'nuf said'.
 
 
I'm off to hit the studio and make some music ... I wrote it down, but hey, I don't NEED the music in front of me to play it :-)
 
Cheers - Cliff
 

vintagevibe

john6448


Notion is supposed to have an announcement "soon" about a release date for Notion 4. Like so many such situations, "soon" has become a very elastic term that stretches to accomodate pretty an entire calendar year.

But I own version 3, and hope to see 4 incorporate better VST and MIDI functionality. I too prefer score view, and if Notion does a good enough job of it I might find myself with fewer ties to Sonar. If Sonar is going to ignore notation, then notation users will have to ignore Sonar. I accept the fact that many Sonar users couldn't care less about notation. So be it.

I've been waiting for 2 1/2 years for Notion 3.  I'm not hopeful.  If it's not 64 bit and major work hasn't been done what's the point?

 
You mean for version 4? 3's been out a long time. The hope is that 4 will be 64 bit, and we dont' know what major has or hasn't been done. If it turns out to be a dud, then it is what it is, and will not be the solution either one of us hopes for. But that remains to be seen.

djwayne


Sorry, but when I see a local musician on stage with his notebook showing him the chords to the songs which he should know, I just cringe. Excuse me while I turn the page !! You want me to play what song ?? Just a minute, let me look it up !!

It's really a crutch.
 
 

What? Nuts! How do you know that the non-reading musician on the same stage didn't sit for hours at home learning his parts from a score? Look at the various bands Zappa put together over the years...none of them played from a score onstage, but you can bet your ass they spend countless hours reading from Zappa's written parts in rehearsals. 


The same with, say, a classical guitarist. I can rustle up a repertoire of Bach pieces, even a couple of fugues, that I can perform without the music. But let me tell you it takes hours of practice and memorization with the score first. 


Also, it depends what kind of music you're playing. If you're improvising blues or jazz, you're not going to be reading your lines off of a page, because quite obviously improvisation is from the head. But if you're playing someone's jazz arrangement, what's the best way for the composer to communicate the parts to everyone? Why, written music of course. If you're playing hard rock or some other "popular" genre, there's no need to bring written music into it, because the parts are infinitely simpler to memorize. 


You seem to be prejudiced against written notation and people who use it. Don't be - it's just another form of communication. It's a tool. And it opens more doors than you can possibly imagine. Same with a study of music theory. Back when I was 21, a guitarist friend of mine mocked me for knowing all about harmony and chord construction. He said, music's not about numbers or symbols, it's about playing from the heart. Well 20 years later, he's still bashing out the same three chords and it sounds as boring as hell. What on earth could you have against people broadening their horizons and expanding their skill set? 

djwayne


"So what would you call Bob ... a carpenter ?. I doubt it."
 
 
 
 
Believe whatever you want,  I'm done with your pompous insults.

CYA

Hey Mr. DJWayne,

I never insulted you. And BTW, I'm not pompous either.
It's not a case of just "what I believe" either ... it's facts.


Now, see this reply from sharke ?...

Here's someone who knows what they're talking about, maybe you should take some notice.

Did I mention that even some of Santana's music (to me) is boring as hell ?.
It's true, he's done some really cool stuff, and some that I think is really very very boring.

Oh, and he (Santana) did learn to read music - don't know how well, or if he kept it up though.

Eric Clapton ... he learned to read too ... but he didn't practice and forgot how.
He should have kept up the practice.


I have to agree with sharke that you seem to have a prejudice against people who can read music, however that's your loss, not ours.

It seems to be a typical knee jerk reaction from those that feel inferior or inadequate, because they can't do the same.

It doesn't bother me what you think, or whether you can or can't read music, the simple facts are, those that learn to read, end up learning a LOT MORE as I stated above, and as per sharke's reply. It's not something that can be debated or argued, it is simply fact. And my guess is it's a fact you'll probably refuse to recognise, which is ultimately your loss, not mine or anyone elses.

sharke

djwayne


Sorry, but when I see a local musician on stage with his notebook showing him the chords to the songs which he should know, I just cringe. Excuse me while I turn the page !! You want me to play what song ?? Just a minute, let me look it up !!

It's really a crutch.

What? Nuts! How do you know that the non-reading musician on the same stage didn't sit for hours at home learning his parts from a score? Look at the various bands Zappa put together over the years...none of them played from a score onstage, but you can bet your ass they spend countless hours reading from Zappa's written parts in rehearsals. 


The same with, say, a classical guitarist. I can rustle up a repertoire of Bach pieces, even a couple of fugues, that I can perform without the music. But let me tell you it takes hours of practice and memorization with the score first. 


Also, it depends what kind of music you're playing. If you're improvising blues or jazz, you're not going to be reading your lines off of a page, because quite obviously improvisation is from the head. But if you're playing someone's jazz arrangement, what's the best way for the composer to communicate the parts to everyone? Why, written music of course. If you're playing hard rock or some other "popular" genre, there's no need to bring written music into it, because the parts are infinitely simpler to memorize. 


You seem to be prejudiced against written notation and people who use it. Don't be - it's just another form of communication. It's a tool. And it opens more doors than you can possibly imagine. Same with a study of music theory. Back when I was 21, a guitarist friend of mine mocked me for knowing all about harmony and chord construction. He said, music's not about numbers or symbols, it's about playing from the heart. Well 20 years later, he's still bashing out the same three chords and it sounds as boring as hell. What on earth could you have against people broadening their horizons and expanding their skill set? 

Thanks sharke dude, you took the words right out of my mouth :-)
(Nothing to do with Meatloaf :-)



Cheers - Cliff

Just out of interest... How many people can read and play the music shown in piano roll view? Seen a few videos on youtube with some people making 'tutorials' for different songs using a prv or piano roll.. I can't adjust to it..  But thats just me I suppose..