lawajava
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Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
I'm using Sonar X1D Producer Expanded. I'm targeting CD/mp3 output, not Surround sound. Should I set my audio preferences to record in 24-bit, and then on a mixdown mix it down to 16-bit audio? Or should I pick a higher setting? Just wondering about opinions. I have enough CPU/space etc. to handle intense demands on a processor, but I'm wondering what the right audio bit rate should be that I use as my de facto standard as I capture my audio during recordings. I'm wondering if I'll get a better final mix if I record at a higher bit rate than CD level 16-bit, even though that's what I'll be mixing to. Advice?
Two internal 2TB SSDs laptop stuffed with Larry's deals and awesome tools. Studio One is the cat's meow as a DAW now that I've migrated off of Sonar. Using BandLab Cakewalk just to grab old files when migrating songs.
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HeatherHaze
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 00:58:40
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You will probably want to record at 24-bit, and keep that bit-depth throughout your whole project until the very final mixdown. Why? Because even though you're eventually dithering to 16-bit, while you're working with the audio all your processing and effects can causes a slight deterioration in the waveform, just like bouncing to tape. With 16-bits the effect can become quite pronounced and audible. 24-bits gives you enough extra resolution that it's not noticable.
In most cases, 24 bits is probably enough. I haven't heard any compelling arguments that going higher is worth the extra file sizes and CPU loads, but I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say about that. Our newer, more powerful systems are certainly capable of handling it. I suppose if you are really into a ton of processing and effects, 32-bits might make sense. Otherwise, I doubt it would even be perceptible.
After moving to 24-bits, your next possible move might be increasing your sample rate. But realistically, 44.1kHz is plenty of room. The only exception is if you're producing for DVD. Since DVD is 48kHz 24-bit audio, might as well start there to begin with. But you're really not gaining much, since the limit of human hearing is around 20kHz and that's about what you get with 44.1kHz (in a stereo file you divide the sample rate in half).
Why does anybody record at 96kHz then? To be honest, simply because they CAN. In the future, there might be some compelling reason to have 96kHz masters, so for studios where money is no object (because drive space = money) they record at the highest rate possible. Furthermore, even though we may not be able to HEAR the difference, some people believe we can FEEL the difference. Maybe, maybe not. It's just a matter of time, however, before some brilliant marketer decides what the public wants is 96kHz music, whether or not anybody can hear the difference, so recording at 96kHZ is also sort of an insurance policy.
For the overwhelming majority of us, however, our target media is CD and MP3s...neither of which benefit one tiniest bit from any sample rate over 44.1kHz. So there you are.
But unlike sample rate, bit depth makes a BIG difference in the sound, especially during the recording process. Definitely go for 24-bit.
)-|-( HeatherHaze http://heatherhaze.com/ "This will be our reply to violence: to make music more intensely, more beautifully, more devotedly than ever before." ~ Leonard Bernstein Cakewalk by Bandlab Studio One 3.5, Cubase 9.5 Intel Core i7 8700, 32Gb RAM Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 V-Studio VS-700 Slate Raven MTi2 Windows 10 Professional 64-bit ...and a whole bunch of other stuff.
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Beepster
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 01:15:44
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That was really cool and concise, Heather. I was trying to wrap my head around this stuff a few days ago.
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noynekker
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 01:59:40
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HeatherHaze . . . nice . . . Only thing I have to add is that in recording for audio CD medias . . . recording at 24 bit gives more headroom (better signal to noise ratio), so that initial recording input does not have to be at such a hot level, therefore when finally mixing down to 16 bit audio CD format, there should be some sort of dithering setting for the downsample conversion.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 02:30:35
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...and 24 bits is better be enough, because there are no soundcards that use a higher bit depth.
Actually, even the 24-bit ones stay around 20-bit or something.
The higher bit rates, 32 and 64, are only programs internal figures, there's no way to record a sound
using those depths.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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lawajava
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 15:42:11
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Thanks all - that's exactly the confirmation I was looking. Great stuff!
Two internal 2TB SSDs laptop stuffed with Larry's deals and awesome tools. Studio One is the cat's meow as a DAW now that I've migrated off of Sonar. Using BandLab Cakewalk just to grab old files when migrating songs.
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daveny5
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 16:07:02
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24, but you will need to dither it down to 16 when you export to WAV files if you plan on creating standard CDs which must be at 16bit, 44.1KHz (bit depth, sample rate).
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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John
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 16:38:37
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Beepster
That was really cool and concise, Heather. I was trying to wrap my head around this stuff a few days ago.
So when I discussed this a little while ago I did an awful job and couldn't explain it well enough. Is that what you are saying Beepster?  LOL I have been reading Heather's posts for awhile now and I find her writing to be some of the very best. It could be due to the fact that either I agree with her or she agrees with me. LOL
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Bub 
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 17:04:48
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We were discussing something similar to this in another thread regarding MP3 and bitrates. My projects are all 96kHz/32bit. Mainly because the higher your sample rate, the lower your latency is. Being a guitar player, latency is a big problem for me when I want to use an amp sim while recording. I have my latency down to 3.2ms RTL using a Fast Track Ultra. One thing about MP3's, you don't need to dither before making the MP3. If you want the best sound quality you can possibly get, export your project without dithering, and then make an MP3. Some people have that MP3 codec for Sonar and just export directly from Sonar to an MP3. I don't do it that way. I always export my projects 96kHz/32bit with no dithering and I do it with Fast Bounce turned off, 64bit engine on. Then I import the 96kHz/32bit .wav in to Sound Forge and make a 320k MP3 with no dithering. There is also a new(ish) VST out now by Sonnox. It lets you master and hear your output in MP3 format in real time in Sonar. Just throw it on your master bus. Sonnox Pro-Codec
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Beepster
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 17:31:12
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Heh... naw, John. That thread was awesome and you guys really helped me out. I think we got more into the science and definitions of what the stuff was as opposed to just proper settings. What I walked away with that thread from was a) Bit Depth is like an incremental knob. The lower the bit depth the further apart the increments will be so certain levels of loudness will not be accessible. The higher the depth the closer together the increments are so there are more loudness options for the DAW to play with. You use a higher bit depth to record/mix in to have access to those extra increments and then on mixdown you convert it to a lesser bit depth (16 bit) and use "dithering" which then throws out the lesser, unneeded sounds and keeps the more pronounced and desirable signals. b) Sample rate is merely how many times the DAW chops up a second of sound for recording/playback. The higher the rate the smoother the sound (in theory). With both of those concepts though once you get past a certain point the subtle differences are imperceptible to the human ear so 16 bit at 44.1 for the final product is more than enough for the end listener. At least I think that's the basic idea.
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John
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 18:25:27
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Beepster
Heh... naw, John. That thread was awesome and you guys really helped me out. I think we got more into the science and definitions of what the stuff was as opposed to just proper settings. What I walked away with that thread from was a) Bit Depth is like an incremental knob. The lower the bit depth the further apart the increments will be so certain levels of loudness will not be accessible. The higher the depth the closer together the increments are so there are more loudness options for the DAW to play with. You use a higher bit depth to record/mix in to have access to those extra increments and then on mixdown you convert it to a lesser bit depth (16 bit) and use "dithering" which then throws out the lesser, unneeded sounds and keeps the more pronounced and desirable signals. b) Sample rate is merely how many times the DAW chops up a second of sound for recording/playback. The higher the rate the smoother the sound (in theory). With both of those concepts though once you get past a certain point the subtle differences are imperceptible to the human ear so 16 bit at 44.1 for the final product is more than enough for the end listener. At least I think that's the basic idea.
I'm glad I asked. Though you are right about 16 bits having fewer increments in level it is plenty to have a great dynamic sound. Where 24 bits is better for our recording is the noise floor is much much lower. They both have the exact same top volume that we set at 0. The full dynamic range is in both but because 16 bits has fewer increments it hits the noise floor at a higher level. You can record in 16 bits and still have a quiet sound but you have not as much range to play with. You have to keep the levels high. With 24 bits you have a great deal more range before you hit the noise floor and thus you can record low and still have a quiet sound. That is really the only difference. Sample rate is not better at higher rates. What happens is the bandwidth is increased with a higher sample rate not the accuracy. If you were to record a sound at 20 kHz sample rate as long as the sound being recorded is less the 10 kHz it will be recorded just fine. The accuracy is in the algorithm that creates the wave form. It has nothing to do with how many samples are made. Bandwidth means the frequency range. So it follows that a sample rate of 44 kHz will record a sound that is up to 20 kHz. A sample rate of 88 kHz will record a sound up to 44 kHz and so on. We can't hear any sounds above 20 kHz under the best conditions and with great hearing. So when the people decided to create a standard for CD they went with 16 bits and 44.1 kHz because it works for all the music we have from classical solo triangle to heavy metal. It captures the audible spectrum completely. I hope this is helpful.
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Beepster
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 19:48:14
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Hey John. Thanks for that. I'm obviously gonna have to dig a little deeper to really get at the science (I guess it doesn't matter as I now know the basics of proper settings but I'm a curious fellow). I'm about to fire up the rig (finally) to start working on the tuts again but I'd like to quickly ask... "noise floor", that's the little hiss or rumble that comes out of the silence when you crank everything up, right? BTW... the Focusrite box is ordered. I (should) be back in action next week. WOOHOO!
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John
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 19:56:09
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Noise floor, yes that is what I am talking about.
But if you crank it up that is not exactly what I mean its when you don't crank it up and there is background noise. Hiss is the most common. But its also full spectrum too.
Before digital there was no way to fully get rid of noise. We had lots of gear that reduced it or masked it but it was inherent in media we used.
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Beepster
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 20:03:06
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Cool. I was reading something about that earlier. I'm assuming by having a higher bit depth it just gives things that little extra breathing room for the DAW or whatever to work slightly above the hiss. I'm probably not conveying that properly but it's kind of what I'm visualizing. I'll figure it out. I'm at the point where I have to stop talking/thinking and just start DOING. Cheers.
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John
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 20:29:18
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Beepster
Cool. I was reading something about that earlier. I'm assuming by having a higher bit depth it just gives things that little extra breathing room for the DAW or whatever to work slightly above the hiss. I'm probably not conveying that properly but it's kind of what I'm visualizing. I'll figure it out. I'm at the point where I have to stop talking/thinking and just start DOING. Cheers.
Its a lot more than "slightly". Thats why we recommend 24 bits. 24 bit digital audio has a theoretical maximum S/N of 144 dB, compared to 96 dB for 16-bit. If you leave it at that there is no real difference for playback more or less except when we record. Each can be very quiet, though. The 24 bit recording will be far easier to keep in the quiet range. What I am getting at here is when I record at 16 bits and then place that on a CD and play it back if I recorded it hot and was very careful it will not be noisy. But if I am not that careful and I don't record hot trying to get my levels up just below 0 it can be very noisy. Where I can record at 24 bits and be very careless and have my levels quite low I can still place that recording on a CD and it will be quiet. Even after converting to 16 bits. Edit to add this; Notice I have not used the term headroom. I think it would be better to think of it as footroom. If your head is at the ceiling than you have no headroom but with 24 bits looking down you see a black hole. If it were 16 bits it wouldn't be so black and might be only a little below your feet. The floor that is! End edit. BTW Dither is a means to mask truncation artifacts which happen when we reduce a high bit depth to a lower one with very low level noise to mask the artifacts.
post edited by John - 2012/06/01 20:41:11
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Beepster
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 21:02:47
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I should probably just start PMing you, John if that's okay. I don't want to keep spamming the forums with my silliness. I think what you are saying is there are multiple "noise floors" across the whole spectrum and having a 24 bit (or higher) setting gives a bit of wiggle room EVERYWHERE. Kind of like what I was envisioning but not isolated to absolute silence. Again... I'm struggling conveying my thoughts on this but perhaps that's close to what's happening. I appreciate your attention to my particular cause. It's more than appreciated. I hope to have a rudimentary blues track assembled by this time next week if all goes well. Very excited to get the new i/o running. Cheers!
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Beepster
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 21:05:56
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Just saw the edit. The headroom thing is something I very much visualized already. Gonna leave lots of that everywhere. I see how it could apply to the "floor" as well now though. Thanks.
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John
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 21:18:31
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I am not a fan of PMing. You of course can PM me at any time. But if its a question that has any relevance to the forum I would prefer it be in the forum. You shouldn't feel that you are being a problem in any way at all. To the contrary, you have added so much to the forum. Its a pleasure working with you. If anyone doesn't want to answer or is simply tired all they need do is not post. If I am tired or don't have anything to say guess what, I don't post. This place is for X1 users to interact with one another. You have every right to ask any questions you want.
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Beepster
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 21:51:14
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@John... Fair enough. I do prefer the full forum experience myself as well but I do not want to become tiresome to everyone here. I've got the rig fired up at the moment and I'm working through the tuts from scratch again now that I've tweaked the system, updated to X1d and know a little more after poking around here on the forum for a couple weeks. It's funny. The update seems to have changed some of the file names for the tutorial projects so just trying to find the files has been a bit weird. I want to make notes of those types of things for future rantings. I was going to start a thread about my adventures with X1 immediately but I think I'm gonna work through the tuts a couple of times and then make my report. I also want to do a big prelude of what I've had to do as far as hardware and stuff over the past year to get to this point (researching and building the system, finding what exactly I wanted and needed as far as software plugs, monitors, headphnes, i/o boxes, dealing with "legacy" crap, proper installation/registration, etc). I'm hoping it might help others hearing all the things I've personally learned and done to get to this very basic starting point and perhaps get a few of the pros to chime in or at the very least get a chuckle (I have to laugh at myself a lot to avoid frustration so some good natured ribbing keeps me going). It was a LOT of work and thought and outright frustrating BS at times so it would make me happy if even one person out there avoids a couple of my pitfalls. So yeah... back to it. Not gonna get far tonight but I made a promise that I'd get back to work... distractions be damned. Cheers.
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chuckebaby
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 21:56:09
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Bub
We were discussing something similar to this in another thread regarding MP3 and bitrates.
My projects are all 96kHz/32bit. Mainly because the higher your sample rate, the lower your latency is. Being a guitar player, latency is a big problem for me when I want to use an amp sim while recording. I have my latency down to 3.2ms RTL using a Fast Track Ultra.
One thing about MP3's, you don't need to dither before making the MP3. If you want the best sound quality you can possibly get, export your project without dithering, and then make an MP3.
Some people have that MP3 codec for Sonar and just export directly from Sonar to an MP3. I don't do it that way. I always export my projects 96kHz/32bit with no dithering and I do it with Fast Bounce turned off, 64bit engine on. Then I import the 96kHz/32bit .wav in to Sound Forge and make a 320k MP3 with no dithering.
There is also a new(ish) VST out now by Sonnox. It lets you master and hear your output in MP3 format in real time in Sonar. Just throw it on your master bus.
Sonnox Pro-Codec
i dont think its that new,but you said new-ish,so your right within the last year or so,give or take. thats a really cool plug in bub,it shows you keep up on your times in modern technology. i caught the sample video on groove 3 for this,its amazing what that thing can do. i was interested as well untill i wen to the site and saw the price on one of their bundles. ouchy..big bucks
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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vicsant
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 22:48:54
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daveny5
24, but you will need to dither it down to 16 when you export to WAV files if you plan on creating standard CDs which must be at 16bit, 44.1KHz (bit depth, sample rate).
What's tbe best dithering algo to use in X1 when going down to 16bits?
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Bub
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/01 23:34:48
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@Chuck: Thanks. I found it by accident one night when I was sitting here thinking to myself what a cool idea it would be to be able to master and hear what it would sound like in real time as an MP3. And yes, it is very expensive, but if someone is really interested, they can call Sweetwater and ask them what their best price is. I'm sure they'd work with you. ;)c
@vicsant: That's a loaded question. :)
Try this ... try exporting a project multiple times, each using a different dithering method. Then compare them and see which one sounds better. It's actually really hard to tell a difference unless you have excellent hearing and a pristine listening environment.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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daveny5
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/02 11:23:04
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vicsant
daveny5
24, but you will need to dither it down to 16 when you export to WAV files if you plan on creating standard CDs which must be at 16bit, 44.1KHz (bit depth, sample rate).
What's tbe best dithering algo to use in X1 when going down to 16bits?
Depends on the type of music. Check out pages 898-899 in the X1 manual for a description of each type and what its best for.
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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tunekicker
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/02 12:30:27
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Knowing the numbers can also help you identify crap equipment. We have an Alesis digital graphic EQ at church that boasted 24-bit conversion, but later on the spec sheet I saw the dynamic range at about 96 dB (which is basically the dynamic range of 16-bit.) I have to wonder- how did they manage sucking so badly? Peace, Tunes
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John
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/02 13:31:41
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tunekicker
Knowing the numbers can also help you identify crap equipment. We have an Alesis digital graphic EQ at church that boasted 24-bit conversion, but later on the spec sheet I saw the dynamic range at about 96 dB (which is basically the dynamic range of 16-bit.) I have to wonder- how did they manage sucking so badly? Peace, Tunes
That could be due to them being honest. Unless it is a pure digital device it would have analog components. Those components could be the cause of the lower S/N ratio. I don't know this for sure about the device. Just a thought.
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dubdisciple
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/02 13:40:21
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I too prefer to export with the dithering turned off in Sonar. If I need to dither, I use the Izotope MBIT+ algorithms in Sound Forge.
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Chris S
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Re:Simple Audio question - what bit rate to record at?
2012/06/02 17:05:35
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Yea, I keep everything in 32 bit, 44kHz until I dither with iZotope at the end. There are technical reasons why halving is better but I don't want to look up references.
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