Slip editing then fade question (Video included)

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Danny Danzi
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2011/06/06 13:52:10 (permalink)

Slip editing then fade question (Video included)

Hi everyone,
 
Quick question I've been meaning to ask since I got X1 that I've been forgetting about. Let's say I have a clip that I want to slip edit...you know, slide the clip to get rid of some dead space or whatever. Once I do this and put on a little fade on the end of the clip, I can no longer slip edit it once that fade is applied. I must undo the fade in order to have "Slide" control over that particular side of the clip. Am I doing something wrong? Is it supposed to be this way? In case I'm not explaining it right, I'll tell you what I do.
 
So I have a recording of a guitar solo. I turned my volume knob on a bit early and made a few little string noises as I was preparing to play. I go to the beginning of the clip (left side of it) and slip edit it away until the noises are gone and it starts where I start to play the solo. From there, I add a slight fade in on the track so it doesn't "pop" in. Now, if by chance I want to slide the clip back out a bit because I slid it in too tight, I will need to remove the fade I did so I can do this. The same if I decide I want to slide the clip inward a bit more. I don't have this issue using 8.5. I can always slide the edges of a clip any time I want whether or not there is a fade in or fade out going on.
 
I have this same thing if I do a punch in. Anytime a fade/crossfade is added, I have no control to slide or overlap the clips as long as there are fades involved. Has anyone seen this and is there a way to correct it? Do I need to update my methods in the way I'm doing this, or is removing the fade the only way to get control over slip editing again? Thanks in advance. :)
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2011/06/06 15:48:40

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 15:05:53 (permalink)
    I am able to slip the clip even with fade by going to the end of the clip in the middle (not top or bottom) and dragging.

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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 15:32:00 (permalink)
    I tried everything, sharp. Here's a video of what I'm talking about.

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/SlipEdit.wmv

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    pinguinotuerto
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 16:03:12 (permalink)
    It's a bug I reported to Cakewalk. If you were to Zoom in, then you would be able to slip edit.  When there's a fade at the beginning of a clip, and you're not zoomed in "drastically," the smart tool can't figure out what you're trying to do.  My temporary workaround is to switch to the trim tool with my middle mouse button.  It sucks, and they are aware, but please fill out an problem report.

    P.S. This doesn't happen at the end of a clip, only the beginning.

    P.S.S. I'm very dissapointed in Cakewalk for this release. :(

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 16:35:47 (permalink)
    did you install the patch? the only thing I could say is re install sonar and see if this works, because mine works nicely.

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    pinguinotuerto
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 16:47:21 (permalink)
    It's a bug, regardless of updates!

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 16:50:12 (permalink)
    Ok, if it isn't updates and  if mine works and yours don't,  then try reinstalling.

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    pinguinotuerto
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 16:55:56 (permalink)
    Yours doesn't work either, you just don't know it.  Perhaps, you don't understand what the OP is describing.  This has been confirmed by Cakewalk and it can be reproduced on any system.

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    Guitarpima
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 17:18:14 (permalink)
    Try moving the fade  over more, slip edit and put the fade back where you want. I run into that all the time.

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 17:18:55 (permalink)
    Here is a video I created of my slip and it works no problems View My Video
    I hope this helps
    post edited by sharpdion23 - 2011/06/06 17:22:27

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    codamedia
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 17:20:28 (permalink)
    pinguinotuerto: Can't be reproduced on all machines - cause I don't see that problem either

    Danny, are you using the Smart Tool? That's what I have engaged so that is what I am referencing. From the bottom to 3/4 of the way up (start of clip, or end of clip) I get the option to slip edit (blue). The top quarter becomes a fade (red).
     
    EDIT: I stand corrected. If I only apply a very moderate fade in then YES, I get the exact same problem unless I zoom in!

    post edited by codamedia - 2011/06/06 17:28:02

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    pinguinotuerto
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 17:25:59 (permalink)
    sharpdion23


    Here is a video I created of my slip View My Video
    I hope this helps

    Sharp,
    You're missing the point. read my original post to the OP.  This is a bug. I even saw it in your video.  If you have a fade-in at the beginning of a clip, and you're not zoomed in enough, you don't get the option to slip edit (that's when the beginning of a clip turns blue), you only get the option to adjust the fade-in.  You have to zoom in a lot in order to be able to make it work.  This can really be a pain and can slow you down when you're trying to edit quickly and doing edits across multiple tracks.  This doesn't happen on fade-out at the end of a clip no matter how zoome in or out you are. It happens only on fade-in.

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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 17:28:13 (permalink)
    codamedia


    pinguinotuerto: Can't be reproduced on all machines - cause I don't see that problem either

    Danny, are you using the Smart Tool? That's what I have engaged so that is what I am referencing. From the bottom to 3/4 of the way up (start of clip, or end of clip) I get the option to slip edit (blue). The top quarter becomes a fade (red). I saw the video and yours is not responding this way, which is why I am asking if you are set to use the smart tool.

    I'm on a 32 bit setup. Shouldn't make a difference, but you never know.


    CODA, it does. It's a confirmed problem by Cake.  read the description of the problem carefully.  This happens when you're using the smart tool.  My workaround is to switch to the trim tool instead of having to zzom in everytime.

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 17:35:40 (permalink)
    pinguinotuerto


    sharpdion23


    Here is a video I created of my slip View My Video
    I hope this helps

    Sharp,
    You're missing the point. read my original post to the OP.  This is a bug. I even saw it in your video.  If you have a fade-in at the beginning of a clip, and you're not zoomed in enough, you don't get the option to slip edit (that's when the beginning of a clip turns blue), you only get the option to adjust the fade-in.  You have to zoom in a lot in order to be able to make it work.  This can really be a pain and can slow you down when you're trying to edit quickly and doing edits across multiple tracks.  This doesn't happen on fade-out at the end of a clip no matter how zoome in or out you are. It happens only on fade-in.

    The OP said he doesn't want it to pop in meaning the fad in not out. and he was also asking if the only way to get control over his slip was to take out the fade first. zooming in doesn't take a minute or even 10 seconds. and if you are talking about such small fades that you have to zoom in quite a bit, then that fade doesn't have much effect on the clip you are trying to fade so it doesn't just pop in like the OP said.

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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 17:36:49 (permalink)
    Thanks for the responses everyone. Ping, you and I must have something that only affects us. LOL! I'll fill out a problem report and include my video just in case it helps.

    coda & sharp: Yeah I'm using the smart tool...but I think you're not seeing it because you're not slip editing tight enough. Here's what I've found out...and I should probably make a new video to show you what I'm talking about here, but I think you'll understand me. If not, let me know.

    Ok, lets say we have a wave file that looks like this:
    ----█████

    We can add a fade anywhere inside where the ---- is and still slip edit. We can even fade way up into where the wave data physically is and still slip edit. Now, the problem is, as soon as you slip edit INTO the actual █████ part of the wave and THEN fade in, you will not be able to slip edit any longer. You MUST literally touch wave data on the slip edit and then fade in for it to stop slip editing from taking place.

    That's the only time is seems to happen...or, like I said, at punch points. But you have to slip edit into the wave file and then do the fade to see this issue I'm having. If you're unclear about what I'm talking about, I'll make another quick vid, but I think you'll understand this. :)

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    pinguinotuerto
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 17:47:48 (permalink)
    Danny Danzi


    Thanks for the responses everyone. Ping, you and I must have something that only affects us. LOL! I'll fill out a problem report and include my video just in case it helps.

    coda & sharp: Yeah I'm using the smart tool...but I think you're not seeing it because you're not slip editing tight enough. Here's what I've found out...and I should probably make a new video to show you what I'm talking about here, but I think you'll understand me. If not, let me know.

    Ok, lets say we have a wave file that looks like this:
    ----█████

    We can add a fade anywhere inside where the ---- is and still slip edit. We can even fade way up into where the wave data physically is and still slip edit. Now, the problem is, as soon as you slip edit INTO the actual █████ part of the wave and THEN fade in, you will not be able to slip edit any longer. You MUST literally touch wave data on the slip edit and then fade in for it to stop slip editing from taking place.

    That's the only time is seems to happen...or, like I said, at punch points. But you have to slip edit into the wave file and then do the fade to see this issue I'm having. If you're unclear about what I'm talking about, I'll make another quick vid, but I think you'll understand this. :)

    Danny,
    No problem. They just don't get what we're talking about. It happens when Sonar does an automatic fade-in for you because the fade point is so "small" that sometimes you don't even know it's there.  It is a pain, it doesn't work the way it should and Cake is aware of it, but do fill the report anyway.  Take care.

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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 18:20:06 (permalink)
    Here's a new video to show you guys a bit more in depth. Thanks again to everyone who has offered help on this. I'm going to file a problem report now. If anyone does find out that I'm doing something wrong, I'll gladly learn from you. :) Here's the link:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/SlipEdit2.wmv

    Thanks again.

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 19:50:18 (permalink)
    I don't think you are doing anything wrong. Either use the edit trim tool, zoom in until you get the slip again or use gain envelopes  as a workaround.

    I hope this helps

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    lorneyb2
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 20:39:34 (permalink)
    Have you tried it using the trim tool(right click wrench(spanner) and select trim) from the right side of the fade line.  Works for me there every time.

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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/06 21:32:59 (permalink)
    lorneyb2


    Have you tried it using the trim tool(right click wrench(spanner) and select trim) from the right side of the fade line.  Works for me there every time.


    You always seem to come out of the woodwork at the right time and give me a fix lorneyb...lol! I'm thinking with this version of Sonar, the way you explained it with the wrench is probably how this is supposed to work and how it was probably made to work all along. I did fill out a problem report, so we'll see what they say. I would assume your method is the correct method for X1 as I have to use different tools when editing midi, why wouldn't I for audio? Now unless the smart tool is broken for this particular thing that I'm trying to do, I think you may have found the correct method. Thanks very much for stepping in here. I'll see if I hear anything more on this. What puzzles me is, I would think you wouldn't have to change tools for something like this. I would also think "the smart tool does it all" but I could be mistaken. I'll keep you guys informed though...thanks again lorney, and everyone else. :)

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    lorneyb2
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/07 02:47:08 (permalink)
    Well, sharpdion23 is actually the one who had the answer, I just gave you the specifics on how to get to it.  It is likely supposed to work with the smart tool as well but this is the surest and least frustrating method to get it working consistantly.

    Glad you have a method to get it to work for you.
    post edited by lorneyb2 - 2011/06/07 02:48:21

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    pinguinotuerto
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/07 10:27:50 (permalink)
    Danny,
    I told you to use the trim tool in my first reply. That's the workaround I've been using since I discovered the problem.

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    Sylvan
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/07 11:07:19 (permalink)
    The smart tool is working just fine. When you have such a small fade as that, how do you expect the smart tool to know what you want to do unless you are zoomed in far enough to clearly see a distinction between slip editing and a fade?

    If the smart tool was actually able to slip edit (with a very small fade present) zoomed out that far, then people would be complaining that it wasn't able to edit the fade. Just zoom in and be done with it, or use the slip edit tool. Thats all it is.
    There is no "problem" here. To me, this is the only logical way to do it. Cakewalk got it right just the way it is (in my opinion). The tools and abilities are there to slip edit no matter how small your fade is. Just spend the half second to do it.
     
    What do the engineers of yesteryear think of people who think it is unacceptable to spend a half second to chop a clip. It took longer than that with the old method of razor blades. We are so spoiled with this technology. Me personally, I am greatful for these powerful editing tools available today (from all the DAWS). Just amazing.
    post edited by Sylvan - 2011/06/07 11:15:18

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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/07 11:14:15 (permalink)
    Sylvan


    The smart tool is working just fine. When you have such a small fade as that, how do you expect the smart tool to know what you want to do unless you are zoomed in far enough to clearly see a distinction between slip editing and a fade?

    If the smart tool was actually able to edit the fade zoomed out that far, then people would be complaining that it wasn't slip editing. Just zoom in and be done with it, or use the slip edit tool. Thats all it is.

    Sylvan,
    Did you not read my posts? This is a confirmed bug by Cakewalk.  It's not working fine. How do I expect it to work properly? The same way it works on fade-outs.  Because that's the way it's suposed to work acording to the manual!!!  It works at the end of a clip when there's a fade-out regardless of how small the fade is. Try it yourself and see. 
     
    I don't know why people seem to be in denial about this issue!

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    #24
    Sylvan
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/07 11:17:26 (permalink)
    pinguinotuerto


    Sylvan


    The smart tool is working just fine. When you have such a small fade as that, how do you expect the smart tool to know what you want to do unless you are zoomed in far enough to clearly see a distinction between slip editing and a fade?

    If the smart tool was actually able to edit the fade zoomed out that far, then people would be complaining that it wasn't slip editing. Just zoom in and be done with it, or use the slip edit tool. Thats all it is.

    Sylvan,
    Did you not read my posts? This is a confirmed bug by Cakewalk.  It's not working fine. How do I expect it to work properly? The same way it works on fade-outs.  Because that's the way it's suposed to work acording to the manual!!!  It works at the end of a clip when there's a fade-out regardless of how small the fade is. Try it yourself and see. 
     
    I don't know why people seem to be in denial about this issue!
    I am not in denial. If it worked the way you think it should, then it would be a bug to me. I guess there are different strokes for different folks. If Cakewalk bends and changed this, I hope they leave the option to leave it the way it is so people like me can keep our way of working.
    Or I suppose they could make us both happy if they can make a distinct difference between slip editing and fade editing at any zoom level. That is all I would want. I suppose they may be able to do that, that would be cool.
    post edited by Sylvan - 2011/06/07 11:20:35

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    #25
    Guitarpima
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/07 20:47:25 (permalink)
    In 8.5, wasn't it both ways? Just split like the selection of a track and where to place the now  time here in the clips. I seem  to remember being able to slip edit at the bottom of the clip and at the top it worked the fade.

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    #26
    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/07 22:36:35 (permalink)
    Hi guys,

    Sharp, thanks for all you tried to do here...sorry I zipped right through where you said to use "the edit trim tool". I was so set on why this wasn't working with the smart tool, I had missed that both you and Ping made a mention of it...so thank you to both of you.

    Lorney: Thanks for bringing it to my attention and for also reminding me that sharp had made a mention of it. I was so lost in figuring it out, I wasn't concered with a work-around for the moment. Thank you all for looking into this and providing answers and work-arounds.

    Sylvan: The more I read the posts offered here, the more I actually thought as you did. Especially when I realized that the trim tool was the fix for it. However, in a recent midi editing post, Seth made a mention that "you don't have to change tools for midi...the smart tool does it all" and showed examples on how he uses it. That said, it made me think "I'm sure this same mentality has to be there for the audio portion as well." But then the other side of me kept on saying "Well how the heck is it supposed to know?" So I've been on the fence, but then remembered that Ping said he DID post this as a problem report and it was confirmed. Well, I submitted mine last night as promised.

    Low and behold, I not only got a response that it has been sent to development, but I received an additional email with some stuff to use as work-arounds. The first mail said:

    "The status of your problem report has updated to "Submitted to Development" with the following notes:

    This is confirmation that we have been able to reproduce the behavior you are experiencing. We have logged this issue as an official report with our development team for further review and hope to have it addressed in a future release."

    The second one said:

    "The following message has been added to your problem report:

    Thank you for your report.

    We have an official report on file with our development team regarding this. It appears this behavior exists on the left edge of a clip if the fade in region is really small and you are using the Smart Tool.

    As a suggested work around, you can use the Trim tool. If you prefer to use the Smart Tool primarily, you can also temporarily select the Trim tool by holding F8 when trimming a clip and then releasing F8 when you are finished trimming the clip. Holding the F8 key and then releasing will temporarily select the Trim tool and will revert to your previously selected tool when released."

    The F8 thing I didn't know about, so that's something else to try. I've always had great responses as well as great response time every time I have ever used Cake support and the problem reporter. I really feel bad for those that claim they never get any responses back. I can't say anything but "great" in how they have always taken care of me. I usually get a human that responds to me if there is a serious enough issue...but this acknowledgment with the work-around (even though you guys were kind enough to set me straight before hand) was a pretty cool gesture as well. So I just wanted to let you guys know what I found out. Thank you all once again for trying to help me, I really appreciate it. And thanks to Cake support for acknowledging the issue and offering a work-around as well. :)

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    #27
    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/07 22:41:12 (permalink)
    Guitarpima


    In 8.5, wasn't it both ways? Just split like the selection of a track and where to place the now  time here in the clips. I seem  to remember being able to slip edit at the bottom of the clip and at the top it worked the fade.


    Yep, that is correct Robert and why I had assumed the smart tool was broken for what I was trying to do. In 8.5, you got fade at the top, slip edit in the middle. Sure, sometimes I had to zoom in tight to adjust a fade, but I've never had to zoom in tight to adjust a slip edit unless it was something I needed to do by choice. So yeah, in 8.5 it works as I was hoping it would here in X1. :)

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    #28
    sharpdion23
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    Re:Slip editing then fade question 2011/06/07 23:41:06 (permalink)
    Glad we were of help!

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