LockedSmall room acoustics / monitor placement

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2010/09/25 14:48:42 (permalink)

Small room acoustics / monitor placement

Hi.

Here's my situation. We're moving to new apartment. I move with my bedroom studio.
I will have appr. 6 meters x 6 meters room for my equipment.

I have always played by ear, when it comes to monitor placement / dampening walls etc.

However, since we are moving to new apartment, I invested for microphone (Behringer ecm8000) , and I will try the Room EQ Wizard app. for finding best place for monitors, and maybe investing *small* amount of money for bass traps / acoustic elements. I don't want to invest too much money for the acoustic treatment, as the place we are moving in, is not going to be the last place we move.

Do I understand correct, that I would need to ;

1. Place microphone for optimal listen point
2. Use the Room EQ Wizard
3. (probably in the REW-app. I have not used it yet) play white/pink noise through speakers, so REW can calculate the room response.
4. Adjusting speakers/finding right spot, using frequency response chart created by REW
5. Use the waterfall spectrum, try to reduce reverberation of disturbing frequencies with bass-traps / acoustic elements / hanging carpets

I'd assume 4&5 will play together, as both depends on each another.

Do you have any hints, which you wish to share ?

-Janne
post edited by janetski - 2010/09/25 14:52:52
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    wst3
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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/09/26 13:50:49 (permalink)
    HUGE topic, and I have to stipulate that I have yet to get one of these 'wizard' type tools to work as well as good old common sense and a little math... so I am biased against them.

    You need to start with a couple basic principles:
    1) if you will be monitoring in stereo you NEED symmetry between the left and right sides.
    2) you can do nothing about LF performance if you can't change the walls!
    3) speaker placement is the single most important decision you'll make, followed closely by listener placement, everything else serves those two choices.
    4) The ratio of direct to reverberant sound fields probably plays a much larger role that most seem to think, there is a difference between being "in the recording" and being "in the room" - figure out which is more important early.
    5) You have three tools at your disposal - absorption, diffusion, and reflection - use all three.
    6) Passive LF absorption is very nearly a myth.
    7) Broadband absorption causes fewer problems than tuned absorption
    8) You will probably need tuned absorption
    9) Your ears are a better test instrument than almost anything else!

    All that said, start with speaker and listener placement with an eye towards symmetry and minimizing early reflections. Once you get that settled start using the wizard to determine if/what treatments might help solve existing problems.

    Good luck...

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    bitflipper
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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/09/26 13:57:25 (permalink)
    Place the microphone where your ears normally are when mixing. You will get different results with even small changes in microphone location. Remember, there is really no such thing as a single "room response" - in reality it's hundreds of little pockets of too-much-this and too-little-that scattered around the room. So you have to pick a spot and try to make that spot the best it can be.

    Your goal is not necessarily to reduce RT60's but to even them out. Deadening reverberation is easy, and also easy to overdo it. What you're trying to achieve is preventing specific frequency bands from having noticeably longer reverberation times than others.

    Re-run REW with speakers in different locations. You'll be surprised how much the waterfall graph can change as speakers are moved nearer or further from surfaces. As a general rule of thumb, the further away from boundaries the better ("boundary" meaning any broadly reflective surface, e.g. floor, ceiling, walls).



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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/09/27 00:45:14 (permalink)
    Thank you for your hints!

    I guess, that I'm going to be in endless swamp of possibilities/problems with this.
    Also, I guess, that I will need to settle with best compromise.

    Especially, more or less likely, the biggest acoustic problem will be the up-stair neighbour dancing Zumba with wooden shoes and the next door neighbour practice tennis towards the wall while the neighbour in downstairs is playing endlessly chumbawamba* from the stereos. 

    Thanks for writing!

    -Janne

    *or anything else
    post edited by janetski - 2010/09/27 00:47:25
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    Philip
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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/09/27 16:12:01 (permalink)
    Simplicity, IMHO.

    If like me ... you may have enough reverb dampening in your new room (rugs, a bed, etc.) ... and not need any bass traps, etc.

    With mics ... hopefully you don't even need any vocal anechoics, at all.  A good pre compensates with HPF's as do many mics.  Of course early reflections (back of chair, desk, etc., are undesireble.  I point my mouth into the mic to an arbitrary 'open' area with acceptable takes 90% of the time +/-.  (My computer fans don't even hurt me if I keep the computer away from the cardiode field.)

    Not to discount Bit's extremely valuable info: some of us do extremely well with non-purist room-acoustics. 

    No one on song's forum has complained about my dozens of recordings being acoustically off (A simple 80-120 Hz HPF filter fixes things)

    Monitors ... I keep my Adams close 3-4 feet from the ears)(my room dimensions are similar to yours) 12 x 20'.

    TBH, My Headphones (AKG k701s) sound identical to my Adams monitors after 2 years of using them daily for mixing and recording in Sonar.

    IOWs, simple straitforward mic and monitor placement seems to have worked OK for me (despite translational issues ... needing to listen-crit with multiple monitors/environments).  I'm confident you'll have no problems.  JMO!

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    Norrie
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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/10/12 19:10:01 (permalink)
    Have you thought about a se reflection filter for your mic ? You could then hang a duvet / bed sheet or large bit of foam behind you from a mic stand ?

    This was a tip I read in sound on sound mag for makeing good home studio vocals

    I use a SE relection filter and they are good but I dont hang anything behind me I find it ok on its own :)

    Norrie

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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/10/18 16:28:06 (permalink)
    Thanks Philip & Norrie for writing.

    We've finally made our move to new apartment.
    I have "calibrated" the soundcard for the REW. I will start measuring tomorrow.
    No acoustic treatment in room yet, so the reverberation is huge!

    I'm planning to hung some thick carpet to wall, as I had in last apartment, to cut off some higher frequencies.

    I also plan to work with low cost DIY resonator, to reduce the lower frequencies. But, since the apartment is empty, and no measurements done yet, I shall see if resonator is needed at all !

    @ Norrie
    I have no problems, when recording, with reverberation as I have some home made reflection filters. Thanks for suggestion.
    post edited by janetski - 2010/10/18 16:31:52
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    Norrie
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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/10/18 19:17:23 (permalink)
    Congrats on moveing to the new apartment :)

    I hope all works out and you get the sound you are looking for :)

    I have grabed a few links for you that you might find interesting on how to make cheep room accoustic treatment etc

    Hope you find some of it some use :)

    SOS Guide To Monitoring & Acoustic Treatment http://www.soundonsound.c...articles/studiosos.htm

    A Beginners’ Guide To Acoustic Treatment http://www.soundonsound.c...beginnersacoustics.htm

    DIY ACOUSTIC TREATMENT

    http://mediamusicforum.co...-studio-acoustics.html


    Acoustic Treatment Principles for Home Studios

    Some Tips on How to Make a Room Sound Better for Recording

    http://www.suite101.com/c...r-home-studios-a103831



    I guessa lot of this will be on of no use but could still be a good read anyway

    Take care and let us know how you get on :)

    Norrie





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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/10/30 15:13:11 (permalink)
    Thanks Norrie, good read ! =)

    I'll post some results soon. I ended up making 2 broadband absorbers to corners, and 3 lightweight frames. Room seems to be nice for my ears. No more ringing of concrete room.
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    Norrie
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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/10/30 18:29:49 (permalink)
    Your very welcome

    I wasnt sure if any of it would have been of use to you or even what you needed but some times its nice just to have a nice read :)

    Norrie

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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/11/12 12:55:54 (permalink)
    Hey. I finally have the concrete room ready.
    I have two DIY "broadband" absorbers at the corners and 3 "acoustic paintings" hanging on the wall.
    I attached some pictures from the REW + absorber photo. Sorry about the yellowness of the photo. For some reason, the higher frequencies look odd. It should not be a feedback loop.

    I'm happy with the results, the room feels more pleasant for my ears.

    Right speaker, empty room


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    Right speaker, treated


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    Right speaker RT60, blue line treated


    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Left speker RT60, blue line treated


    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    And here's the corner absorber


    Uploaded with ImageShack.us
    post edited by janetski - 2010/11/12 13:00:56
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    bitflipper
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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/11/12 21:12:16 (permalink)
    Wow, you're absorbers are sure prettier than mine! And it looks like they're working, too.


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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/11/14 07:01:05 (permalink)
    bitflipper


    Wow, you're absorbers are sure prettier than mine! And it looks like they're working, too.


    Thanks!
    The fabric is straight out from the ike'a, as well the shelf, which I used as backbone to the absorber/resonator.
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    Norrie
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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/11/14 13:33:59 (permalink)
    Hi Janetski!

    Sorry about his noob question but what is the program have showen screen prints from ?

    I would be interested in runing some tests for treatment my self

    Thanks

    Norrie

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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/11/15 07:13:03 (permalink)
    Norrie


    Hi Janetski!

    Sorry about his noob question but what is the program have showen screen prints from ?

    I would be interested in runing some tests for treatment my self

    Thanks

    Norrie


    Hey Norrie. There's not noob questions, only noob answers, or how was it ? :=)

    The program is Room EQ Wizard.

    The page has instructions.
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    Norrie
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    Re:Small room acoustics / monitor placement 2010/11/15 07:27:03 (permalink)
    Thanks for the reply!

    I shall go and check it out thanks for the link :)

    Norrie

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