Helpful ReplySnapshot all plugin states

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Soulburned
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2015/11/09 20:25:27 (permalink)
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Snapshot all plugin states

Fruity Loops Studio has a feature called "Save Project Bones".  It will go through the project and save out to external preset files every instrument and effect's "state" as a native preset file, and create sub-folders based on the project's track and bus structure.  Files are labelled according to the track name, and plugin name so you know where it was saved from.

When dealing with massive composition projects this would come in handy especially if the snapshot all settings could be saved from even frozen synths and effects and store them in a settings folder in the directory of the project. 
 
For instance:
Project folder > Settings > track1_Absynth5 > Track_title_Absynth5vst2x64.fxp,   Track_title_01Alloy2vst2x64.fxp,   Track_title_02RC48vst2x64.fxp,  etc...

Project folder > Settings > Bus1_Drums > Drums_01Solid Bus Compvst2x64.fxp
#1
BobF
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Re: Snapshot all plugin states 2015/11/09 20:55:09 (permalink)
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A lot of details to be worked out on naming, where to save, etc., BUT I really like this idea!!
 

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Soulburned
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Re: Snapshot all plugin states 2015/11/09 23:57:16 (permalink)
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I imagine it would have to be after a project has been created the standard way - when saving the project to a folder and including it's own sub-folder for audio data (per project).

I already add a sub-folder called Resources to the project structure when creating new projects.
  /Project Name/Resources/Audio

Then once the project is created, I manually create a Settings folder, and a video folder if I'm Importing video to build audio/music to.  The settings folder I manually create folders based on tracks and busses, and number them according to the track and bus # (may end up renaming on occasion as sessions grow and get moved around, though it's rare).

I already do this myself to save local copies / backup presets.  Reaktor also allows for saving local versions of ensembles, and I save native presets and FXP/FXB's out locally too just to have redundancy in place.  At this point, it's really more of a backup and redundancy process than for anything that could be considered a librarian service (unless this is also able to capture ProChannel .PCP files as well locally). 

I find it more useful to have settings I've dialed in during previous projects saved out and instantly recallable than to have to manually go back later to completed sessions and deconstruct and save out FX Chains, Presets, and track templates.

Being able to get entire session state snapshots as individual preset files to only load up what you want later can save a TON of time.  I know the Mix Scenes recall offers some of this functionality but only within the opened session and then it's also a global state save that can affect many things (depending on how much you've tweaked between snapshots).
post edited by Soulburned - 2015/11/10 00:08:59
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Kylotan
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Re: Snapshot all plugin states 2015/11/16 09:06:37 (permalink)
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I'm not familiar with this in FL Studio - or at least I'm not any more - so, what would this feature actually achieve? If you're using it to have settings from one project usable in anothers, then that would seem to be what track templates are designed for.

Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc
 
Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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Soulburned
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Re: Snapshot all plugin states 2015/11/16 14:37:21 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Consider it a redundancy feature, a backup option for creating local preset files saved next to your project externally so in the event for whatever reason a session cannot be opened or a plugin can no longer recall when being activated within that session (I've had instances where the VST3 version trying to replace a VST2 version of the same plugin stalls out or crashes because they don't yet support the preset translation).

I'm aware that many plugins have different ways of saving preset files internally to themselves - Waves saves to an XPS format but can also save and load settings to recall from within Sonar's container with FXP (vst2) etc..

The beautiful part about Project Bones export was that it takes a preset snapshot and saves out these files with appropriate naming conventions and sub-folders for the tracks and groups they're attached to even when the asset is frozen. 

Currently, If I'm busy iterating a project with a large VSTi Loadout (20+ instances of kontakt in my most recent strings portion alone) I may have tweaked my multi's a bit.  It would be nice to save that particular project's preset files for how I've altered each of those multi's while they're frozen without having to wait sometimes upwards of minutes for plugins to respond and call up their window to save the presets and then bounce again (which could take up to an hour or more on some of these sessions I've worked on).
 
Another way I work that makes external local presets a necessity is when creating multiple versions of the same project (sketching variations for example) I may delete some things and start fresh with others.  Later I may want to recall some particular aspect of what I did in another version of the project without having to open 2 projects at once (especially when I have active VSTi's eating up tons of memory).  Side-loading another project is indeed possible already, and yes you can copy and paste between projects but when I'm already near my maximum resource utilization I'd like to avoid that as much as possible and Having preset snapshots is simply another avenue for this workflow method.
post edited by Soulburned - 2015/11/16 14:52:23
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Soulburned
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Re: Snapshot all plugin states 2015/11/18 02:29:14 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Here's a quick overview of the Export Project Bones and the file structure implemented by Image-Line.



.FSC files are Score files, which can be groove information or piano roll data.
.FST files are state files which can relate to channel data, a plugin's state, or fruity Module's state.
 
I would imagine the "Cakewalk native" version of this would be save out Plugin Chain Preset files (.FXC), and the entire ProChannel strip's settings as a single Pro Channel Preset (.PCP) using a similar folder structure to be the simplest way to implement this in Sonar.

I would suggest the folder structure for the preset exports to be something along the lines of:
  • Tracks (Folder)
    • Track1-name (folder)
      • Track1-name-FXChain.FXC
      • Track1-name-ProChannelStrip.PCP
  • Busses (Folder)
    • Bus1-Master (folder) *named after the label on the bus*
      • Bus1-Master-FXChain.FXC
      • Bus1-Master-ProChannelStrip.PCP
  • Instruments (Folder)
    • Synthrack1-instrument_name.VST3Preset/FXP
    • Synthrack2-Instrument_name.VST3Preset/FXP

And so on and so on.  Obviously there are some complexities to this basic structure concept that can start to create problems with file management as it's very easy to re-arrange and re-order tracks and busses during a project, and thus would be prone to multiple track # references with various names.  This would make it more work if the files weren't tracked and removed and then written anew each time a track changed it's order in the project.  My first thought would be to automatically delete the existing exported files when saving out new exports, but then you wouldn't have any "versioning" benefits.
 
My next thought would be to implement an auto-export feature that tracks changes, so that every time you load a new plugin, change a parameter in a Prochannel module, or Virtual Instrument, and close the dialog, there's a delayed write save that overwrites the existing external preset in the export directory.  This way you're settings are all saved externally and always up-to-date to the minute while you're working.  No "versioning" feature this way but at least the latest backup copy as you iterate your processing chains and projects.
 
I'm leaning more towards the preference of this active export feature that is "live". Instead of having to go to File > Export > Snapshot all states. Have the feature be active in the background similar to Sonar's backup/autosave feature so that the external folder structure and files are continually updated as you alter the plugins, and prochannel modules/strips, and instruments in the project.  If tracks or busses get re-ordered, it would have to know to change the # in the folder and file structure.
 
There's another wish of mine that automation data could be "binned" into clip containers so that they too could be treated like clips, copied, pasted, cut, looped, stretched, etc..  IF they can achieve this, I would also love those clips to be exportable.  much of that automation data can come in quite handy for sound design and music production.  But, I'll save the details on that for a separate feature request post.
post edited by Soulburned - 2015/11/18 03:12:50
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Soulburned
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Re: Snapshot all plugin states 2015/11/18 17:31:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Kev999 2015/11/18 18:43:28
+2 (2)
Overview of benefits:
The benefit of being able to save out external presets - or as FL Studio calls it "Project bones", provided the preset files are interoperable means easier rebuilding projects in other daws, and easier migration in a number of scenarios.

This can be very helpful for a number of reasons:
1. Migrating between DAWS: the engineer can rely on simply bouncing all raw tracks and re-apply the same plugins.  Since there is no open framework comparable to that of OMF that includes implementation of plugins and/or their states, automation data etc...  This at least can be a step toward that sort of ease of migration.

2. Migrating session data: in the event a new session needs to be made with a similar loadout on the fly as opposed to using track templates.

On occasion I've had track templates cause crashes due to embedded plugins that for whatever reason do not want to load properly. Perhaps it might simply be the case that a particular plugin state was corrupted somehow and trying to recall the state causes the plugin to fail loading and Sonar cannot complete the loading process.

Sure, you can "Shift" open to enable safe mode and see which plugin fails to load, and skip it the next time. BUT when you do that, you forfeit that plugin entirely and lose whatever potential state that plugin was in (if you're smart enough to manually save out your preset files externally from making the track template you're lucky).

3. Modularity - Having individual preset files correlating to the plugins used in the FX Bin on the track or bus always updated with the latest state it was left in would make it easier to re-use on other elements, in other projects without the need to recall everything in the FX Chain, or follow the same gain structure. I may not want to recall an entire FX chain just to get a particular plugin with it's settings I had applied in a previous session.
 
4. Simplifies miscellaneous tasks: Part of my regular process (which can be quite time consuming) is deconstructing a finished project to extract presets, build track templates, FX Chain Presets, bounce out processed stems and raw tracks to keep for archival purposes, etc.  This regular routine is a good practice but comes at a cost of time management.  When business picks up, I have no time to upkeep finished projects in this manner and this could cost me more time in the next project where something I employed in a previous project in whatever manner (a track template, a plugin loadout, FX chain, instrument setting etc) might come in handy to just call up again in the current project.

Caveats & Concerns:
There are of course some caveats. First, I don't know, nor do I presume to be able to include clip-based FX. I also don't believe this can include Region FX, since these don't have state load or save capabilities.

Another caveat is that automation of plugins can disrupt the state of which the presets are saved. Should the state save feature look only at the very beginning of the session or bypass automation data and simply "look" at the latest available state the plugin is currently in?  How does the preset autosave behave when automation is present, will it be based on the current playback head in the timeline?
post edited by Soulburned - 2015/11/18 23:39:19
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mudgel
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Re: Snapshot all plugin states 2015/12/02 06:42:09 (permalink)
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Mix recall saves plugin states for recall along with a long list of other selectable mix features. They can be saved out and applied like templates to new projects.
post edited by mudgel - 2015/12/02 06:54:16

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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Soulburned
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Re: Snapshot all plugin states 2015/12/02 18:01:49 (permalink)
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I get that the Mix Recall function does a lot of things inclusively.  In the MixScenes folder you get a singular CWM file.  Now what happens if the mix recall tries to load a plugin state that becomes corrupt?  Or, for implementing on a new project when trying to load what may have originally been a VST2 plugin that Sonar tries to translate to VST3 and the plugin does not support it?

The mix recall serves a specific function.  But so does the redundancy and externalization of settings into their individual respective files as I've outlined above. A secondary use would also be for preset library building but that's ancillary and not the intent behind this concept.
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mudgel
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Re: Snapshot all plugin states 2015/12/03 05:23:19 (permalink)
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I was only suggesting an interim workaround. I understand your feature request is very different and more encompassing specifically for saving presets.

I made mention of Mix Recall because perhaps there's a framework there for the Bakers to add onto incorporating your ideas.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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Soulburned
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Re: Snapshot all plugin states 2015/12/03 05:49:40 (permalink)
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Good point.  Though even in the Cakewalk project file states are saved in the CWP  the CWM's are also another externalization of settings.  I'm still getting used to using the advanced portion of the mix recall features as much of what I do doesn't really serve a purpose for recalling mix setups.  I definitely want to spend more time with it.
#11
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