Helpful ReplySo, I get the house to myself...

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Sheanes
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/12 10:42:54 (permalink)
Hi James, awesome stuff !!!  Realy somethin' else and nice to listen to. Keep up the unique/brave choices / things !
 
In terms of mix perhaps try a delay or bigger reverb on the vocals.
And there's something about the mix....hard to describe it....it's a bit 'not flowing' with the groove / sounds a little 'restricted' and I"m thinking it's a compressor maybe.
To me it sounds the attack is too soon perhaps (would be around/just onder 10ms I guess, or the release is too quick.....or it's an 'optical compressor' maybe.....or a bit too much 'threshold'.
Anyway, something sounds a bit like it's 'holding the music'  where it would better let it loose,  sorry man I just find it hard to put into words.
And also, that's ofcourse just my ears, and general Lee the mix sounds great !!
 
Taking my hat off sir for this music, deep bow.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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craigb
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/12 10:49:47 (permalink)
I'm glad you thought the suggestions were positive!  What I mean by extending the last syllable is that it sounds like her last word ends too quickly.  Not sure if that's just how she ended them or if there's a volume cut (what it sounds like to me).  It just seems to need a longer decay IMO (I'll see if I can find an example).  Only 15???  Wow!
 
As for the Daft Punk part, I'm pretty sure they incorporate the "Cher" effect which is achieved by using an auto-tuner (like the AVG I used to have) with the correction setting turned up too high.  
 
BTW - I listened to the only other song you have up on SoundCloud (UltraViolet) and that one sounds great (and complete)!
 
One last comment.  I'm only listening on the speakers that come with my new 4k monitor and the mix sounded pretty good.  Others with better monitors might be more suited to provide input on the mix (like adding a little more compression to the bass).

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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craigb
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/12 11:01:58 (permalink)
Just saw Sheanes' comments (must have been writing at the same time).  Yeah, what he said!  Hehe...  Something is clamping down a bit too much.  Below is a quick example, though not the best example unless the extra flair is what you're looking for.  Right around the 0:29 mark, notice how the word "alone" continues into the next part?  In this case it's a bit extreme but, in your song, that last word is almost getting grabbed and smothered - lol.
 


 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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smallstonefan
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/12 13:30:10 (permalink)
Sheanes
Hi James, awesome stuff !!!  Realy somethin' else and nice to listen to. Keep up the unique/brave choices / things !
 
In terms of mix perhaps try a delay or bigger reverb on the vocals.
And there's something about the mix....hard to describe it....it's a bit 'not flowing' with the groove / sounds a little 'restricted' and I"m thinking it's a compressor maybe.
To me it sounds the attack is too soon perhaps (would be around/just onder 10ms I guess, or the release is too quick.....or it's an 'optical compressor' maybe.....or a bit too much 'threshold'.
Anyway, something sounds a bit like it's 'holding the music'  where it would better let it loose,  sorry man I just find it hard to put into words.
And also, that's ofcourse just my ears, and general Lee the mix sounds great !!
 
Taking my hat off sir for this music, deep bow.

 
Thank you Sheanes! This is all very encouraging. :)
 
I still find reverb a bit of a dark art. I have plenty - maybe it's time to go into preset monkey mode on them all and just learn what they'd do. 
 
As for being restricted - I'm guess that was me being too heavy on the master buss. I have a UAD API 2500 I mixed into - it's pretty subtle, but then I was experimenting with using the Sonoxx inflator into the Stealth Limiter and I think I squeezed it too much. I'll post a version without those and perhaps you guys can tell me if the mix is squashed itself or just the "mastering" stuff I applied.
 
 
#34
smallstonefan
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/12 13:32:02 (permalink)
craigb
Just saw Sheanes' comments (must have been writing at the same time).  Yeah, what he said!  Hehe...  Something is clamping down a bit too much.  Below is a quick example, though not the best example unless the extra flair is what you're looking for.  Right around the 0:29 mark, notice how the word "alone" continues into the next part?  In this case it's a bit extreme but, in your song, that last word is almost getting grabbed and smothered - lol.
 





Thanks Craig the video was helpful! Sounds like was an effect so I don't have to have Grace sing again - I'll play with some delays and such and see what I can come up.
 
Thanks guys! :)
#35
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/13 23:43:04 (permalink)
Thanks guys! 
 
I took some advice from Craig and created an intro using vocal takes I already had. This was actually pretty tedious work with lots of envelopes, but I really like how it turned out. I also turned off the master bus compressor but left the limiter on...
 
Let me know what you think!
 
https://soundcloud.com/jamesfoxall/believe-rev-09-mix-12-with-new-intro/s-4DnQx
 
#36
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/14 01:42:27 (permalink)
Aaaaakkkk!!!!  It's ruined!!!!!    (Just kidding!)
 
Through my little speakers that really helped.  The bass is much better and the guitars and vocals sound much more alive.
 
I like the new intro, except for the last vocal sample.  With such a nice big chord coming up, my suggestion would be to leave that final one off to make a bigger impact (it's a bit hard to hear the end of her line anyway, almost like she's being rushed).  I'd still add a couple of "Do you believe's" in the outro though. 
 
Just removing the master bus compressor made the talking samples sound like they don't need any additional background.  The last part of her final words are better too.  I'm still curious what it would sound like with some words echoed in the background (maybe just the word "greener" since that part is emphasized).  I find myself adding it in my head when I'm listening - lol.
 
This is getting close to done me-thinks!  Though I'd love to hear some more experienced ears weigh in.
 


 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/14 01:48:04 (permalink)
Oh, and thanks for leaving the prior mix up.  I kept going back and forth between them.  You could really hear the difference!
 

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
#38
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/14 02:41:21 (permalink)
Hey James, the 'restricted' effect is gone and guess more people will relate/bond with the music now.
It's a good mix imo.
Imo (my ears) the drums are 'speeding' a bit and the mix could use some 'glue' therefore.
You could have this glue, with the API compressor back in, and getting attack and release right.
If you increase the release just close to where it starts to slow down the groove, that should be the glue.
Then you could still add the limiter, but would turn down the input, or raise the threshold so that the boost from the limiter is a bit less.
Pffff....long story sorry.....not an expert either and just writing what I'd try.
 
If you want to, you could load the wav. file without bus EQ, compressor/limiter and I"ll give it a try.
Or you could make this the 2017 Coffee House mastering competition :)
 
But again, it's ok and just minor niggles....and nice / original / interesting music you made.
Just my opinion hoping it helps
 
#39
smallstonefan
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/14 09:06:52 (permalink)
Craig and Sheanes - I can't thank you guys enough for being so generous with your time and your thoughts!
 
The only changes on this version was the intro and the removal of the API 2500 on the master. The other ideas I still have to try based on your feedback include:
 
1. More/different reverb on main vocals
2. Lighter bus compression for glue - I look forward to experimenting with this
3. Echo on key phrases, send as at the end of verses
4. Extend last syllable of some phrases into the next part
5. Have Bapu redo the bass line to create a composite of the pieces. Ed, if you're reading this - are you ready? 
6. I have a friend who is a killer slide player and loves Pink Floyd like I do and we talked about having him try some PF inspired guitar - either some slide on the chorus section or perhaps a fuzz lead. I'm not sure it will work, but we have to try. :)
7. Vocoder part. I'm making progress and not ready to give up just yet!
 
Also Craig - that last "Believe" was a different sample and I'm hampered but what I have recorded. I know in my head what I want it to sound like but it's not there. I might ask Grace to come over and just record some random stuff to sprinkle about - include some "Believe"s. I will also look to remove that last Believe and see how it goes, as well as try the same sample used for the other ones.
 
I plan to use Melodyne to extend some phrases but I have to export the key audio into a new project first since I have no more horsepower to do that in real-time. This is the first project where I've brought my computer to it's knees. I have an i7 with 32BG of RAM and 20 cores of UAD and with the limiter on I get crackles if I do anything with the computer. It's a big project! :)
 
Shaenes, I can post a non-limited version if you want to play with it! That's an area I can definitely use some schooling in. :)
 
I too feel that it is almost done, and that is SO exciting! I'm in an all day meeting so if anyone else responds I might not be able to respond today but I'm definitely not ignoring you guys.
 
THANKS!
#40
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/14 11:22:27 (permalink)
like to give it a try but only if you're really ok with it, and will need a dry mix.
 
it's gotta be dry defenitely, as EQing/compressing a bus 2 times is not a good idea.
 
any loudness level is perfect for me.
also, uploading the whole Sonar project as a bundle onto Dropbox, would be great for me.
#41
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/14 14:06:12 (permalink)
Go light on #1, she already sounds awesome!  Reverb pulls things into the background.
 
On #3 (the echo), think of it more like a background vocalist (in this case the same person) singing it.  Just copying the original word, pulling it into the background and pasting it at the right point should work too.  I'll see if I can find a quick example later today.
 
What you've already done may be enough for #4.  And doing #2 may finish the effort.
 
#5 will put the entire song and every chord into Am
 
#6 & 7, just a thought that came into mind.  Replace the vocoder with a Golden Throat fuzz lead (if you have access to a Golden Throat or similar - think Sweet Emotion, Do You Feel Like I Do, etc.) 

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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smallstonefan
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/14 21:48:50 (permalink)
craigb
#5 will put the entire song and every chord into Am

 
OMG That is my favorite key and I pretty much write EVERYTHING in Am. "Believe" may be more D Dorian than A Minor, but it's the same notes. ;)
#43
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/14 23:29:57 (permalink)
The "Bapu" Effect! 

 
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#44
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 02:36:21 (permalink)
*Patiently waits for next revision to listen to.*
 


 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
#45
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 11:22:20 (permalink)
ha ha! I haven't forgotten you guys. I had two off-sites days this week and I'm getting ready to leave the country on Monday. I've made some progress and I'll post a few files this afternoon (including a non-compressed file available through Dropbox).
 
thanks for caring! :)
#46
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 12:39:05 (permalink)
I'm Eddie Spaghetti and I'm ready (with meatballs).
#47
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 12:55:30 (permalink)
bapu
I'm Eddie Spaghetti and I'm ready (with meatballs).




Now that's a saucy reply! 

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
#48
Sheanes
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 12:59:59 (permalink)
meatballs like Bon Scott was singing about ?
 

 
 
 
post edited by Sheanes - 2017/02/18 13:28:48
#49
Sheanes
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 13:30:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby craigb 2017/02/18 16:23:48
sorry it's my young age.....yeah that's the reason.
#50
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 16:05:00 (permalink)
craigb
*Patiently waits for next revision to listen to.*
 



and 1 patient waiting here
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 16:24:32 (permalink)
The delay is almost unbearable. 

 
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smallstonefan
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 16:47:32 (permalink)
LOL!!!!
 
I spent three hours getting my USB drives working today. :/
 
I'll have a few files up shortly.
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 17:03:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby smallstonefan 2017/02/18 17:13:41
smallstonefan
LOL!!!!
 
I spent three hours getting my USB drives working today. :/
 
I'll have a few files up shortly.


We should start with: did you plug them in?
#54
smallstonefan
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/18 17:23:11 (permalink)
OK,
 
So I spent some time digging into the UAD API 2500 and I do believe I'm starting to figure it out. A little. :) There are a lot of possible permutations with this plugin. I found I could still get that punchiness without having the drums too overpowering by playing with the knee and thrust settings and much fiddling with threshold. I actually learned a lot more about compression spending time this is.
 
After finding a setting I liked on the API, I dropped the kick and snare to mix into the compression. I think it sounds much better, but let me know what you think! I also dropped the Sonox Inflator and used just the Stealth for limiting.
 
Here's the latest mix with the bus comp on lightly, and with some limiting by the IK Stealth.
 
https://soundcloud.com/jamesfoxall/believe-14-limited/s-yj0dK
 
The rest of the files I need to make available via Dropbox.
 
I've got a version with no bus comp and no limiting
a version without bass
and a track with just bass
 
#55
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/19 10:55:33 (permalink)
Sheanes
like to give it a try but only if you're really ok with it, and will need a dry mix.
 
it's gotta be dry defenitely, as EQing/compressing a bus 2 times is not a good idea.
 
any loudness level is perfect for me.
also, uploading the whole Sonar project as a bundle onto Dropbox, would be great for me.



I Sheanes,
 
I have two versions of the song for you. For one,  I took the comp and limiter off the master bus but I left the following chain: Manley Massive Passive > Pultec > Ampex ATR-201. For the other file, I took off everything from the master bus (the above + comp + limiter). I'll post the files for download and PM you the link.
 
Next up is the with and without bass versions for Bapu.
 
Super stoked! :) 
#56
Sheanes
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/19 14:25:05 (permalink)
hey James, jumped at it immediately & had a blast so THANKS.
 
Imported both mixes and when flipping the fase on one, heard just drum/bass from the comp mix, Don't know what happened there....just letting ye know 
Used the compressed mix, added an EQ for a little air but took it off quickly hearing latency from the EQ was too much (having little latency room to begin with).
Then just tweaked free compressor and boost gear (your API/Manley/Pulteq gear sounds awesome !).
Couldn't get it as loud as your mix, man it's LOUD !!!  
IIC your mix is louder than what it would need for commercial use.
Took the left side down 0.8db and added 0.8db to the right.
 
Still hope you like it, you can check/download it from Soundcloud (will remove it when you have it, if that's ok with you).
https://soundcloud.com/user-349211608/believe-mix
been trying mixing for years.....it's a craft/skill on it's own and I have ZERO talent there.
Oh, what really stuck with me listening to the song tonight, besides the original /great music, is the awesome drums...you're a talented drum programmer for sure 
#57
Sheanes
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/19 14:58:59 (permalink)
sorry just seeing now I was listening to your older (loud) mix on Soundcloud.
the one you did after that has a more 'normal' loudness level iic.
 
curious for stuff from Craig and ofcourse Eddy Spagetti & his giant Meatballs  
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/19 16:50:22 (permalink)
I like it. 
 
I'm still curious what it would sound like with those couple of little extras I mentioned above, but it certainly enjoyable as it is now.

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Re: So, I get the house to myself... 2017/02/19 17:19:04 (permalink)
Sheanes
hey James, jumped at it immediately & had a blast so THANKS.
...
Oh, what really stuck with me listening to the song tonight, besides the original /great music, is the awesome drums...you're a talented drum programmer for sure 



Hi Sheanes - your mix sounds good! It's a bit more mellow where mine is aggressive. Yours reminds me of what it was sounding like when I was demoing the UAD SSL-G comp. I like it. :) Care to post screen shots of the settings you used, or just type them out? I'm curious as to how you set up the comp and the limiter. It sounds like you were thinking of the first mix, which was WAY too loud! Heck, I had the API 2500 overdoing it and then I think I puffed it up with the Inflator and then finally some Stealth limiter. My new one and yours breath so much better. :)
 
I appreciate the compliment about the drums. I have to admit I don't build the drums from scratch. I use loops (usually fxpansion, Loop Loft, or Groove Monkey) to lay down the initial tracks but then I do a LOT of editing on them. It's like I couldn't create an interesting drum track from scratch but I do know what I like and so my ears start picking out pieces in the loops - things to delete, things to add. I'd also add that BFD3 can give you real sounding drums!
 
The more I listen to your mix I think I may need to tone down the API even more. I don't know - it's very subjective at this point but yours seems a bit more glued together than mine. They both sound good, but different. 
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