So how do you guys mic you guitar amp?

  Obviously lots of options here with different mics and placement, etc. Just wondering what techniques you guys are using and what your 'do to' setup is. My SM57 has been retired due to old age and being dropped too many times by careless people. I picked up an AUDIX i5 just to try something different. The research I did seemed overall positive on it. Have to say I am a bit disappointed. To me it just sounds dull. Planning on heading over to Sweetwater today after work and picking up a new SM57. I'd like to try a Senheiser but my budget prefers I stay SM57. I realize I have been guilty of not spending enough time on mic placement on the cabinet. As I consider things I can do better in the studio for 2013, this is one of the areas on my list. Pay more attention to the detail of things like this. More attention up front and less trying to fix it later. Danny hit on this in a different post the other day and it really reinforced what I was wanting to do. So interested to hear what you all do and your opinions on the sound differences or mics and placement. Dave

All good points Mike. My amp sits in my isolation room. Approx 12x14. hardwood floor with large carpet in middle. All walls except the double door are built at different angles and have Auralex on them. Bass traps as well in corners. I just went down there and did the 'clap test'. Found spots ranging from very little slapback to just a small amount by the door. When I sit out in the large studio room and play, depending on where the amp is positioned, I definatly get a totally different sound. Have to say I really like the sound that the room imparts on the over sound. I've been thinking about a close mic on the cabinet and my condenser back somewhere in the room to get that 'room' sound.

HA! Makeshift, I just read that article this morning!! Thanks for posting that. It was very informative. Unfortunatly some of the wav file examples did not seem to work. Just played one short note. That article is what prompted this thread.

I primarily mic my 4 x 10 cabinet.  I keep it off the ground on a small sturdy table. 

I spent an entire afternoon a couple of years ago playing with amp placement and mic placement in the room I track in.  I started by narrowing down which individual speaker (s) sounded best to me by ear. Next I played with different mic's and mic placement on the chosen speaker.  Up, down, left right, forward and back, angled and not angled.  I would record little clips and then kind of "blind test" them to the best of my ability.  I figured out, through these test, where the mic should sit, to get just a good basic recorded amp tone.  I can just walk up the the amp now and place the mic pretty darn close to my sweet spot within a few minutes.

I also learned how moving the mic changes the sounds and tones.  Example, moving further away from the speaker gives you more room.  I try to keep this in mind when recording and think of what sound I am going for with the song, prior to hitting the record button.  The basic thing I was going for though, was finding a spot were I could get a pretty good all around tone quickly, when I had to get something down fast.

you can hear the palmer in action in the songs forum right now.....

dxp


  Obviously lots of options here with different mics and placement, etc. Just wondering what techniques you guys are using and what your 'do to' setup is. My SM57 has been retired due to old age and being dropped too many times by careless people. I picked up an AUDIX i5 just to try something different. The research I did seemed overall positive on it. Have to say I am a bit disappointed. To me it just sounds dull. Planning on heading over to Sweetwater today after work and picking up a new SM57. I'd like to try a Senheiser but my budget prefers I stay SM57. I realize I have been guilty of not spending enough time on mic placement on the cabinet. As I consider things I can do better in the studio for 2013, this is one of the areas on my list. Pay more attention to the detail of things like this. More attention up front and less trying to fix it later. Danny hit on this in a different post the other day and it really reinforced what I was wanting to do. So interested to hear what you all do and your opinions on the sound differences or mics and placement. Dave

Hi Dave,
 
You got some good advice all across the board on this, but I'd like to mention something that always seems to get missed in mic'ing cabs that is of the utmost importance to "me" at least. And of course I'll share a few other things while I'm on this subject. :)
 
One of the worst problems people run into with this is, they never truly know what their amp and cab sound like because the cab is on the ground blowing at their knees. You can't even bend down on one knee and hear it correctly to know for sure. Most times you think the bass in the sound is enough where in reality, if you were to raise that cab to ear level, you'd probably throw up.
 
So in order to get a good sound, one must create a good sound BEFORE you even put mic's on your cab or in your room. Start by raising the cab to ear level and listening to what you "thought" was a good sound all these years. 9 times out of 10, you're gonna get sick to your stomach and make changes to your sound in full. You can't do this properly with a cab that's blowing at your knees. It just doesn't happen especially if you're using high gain sounds. The cab has to be raised to hear it.
 
Once you establish a good sound at ear level, the next thing to listen for is how much bass you probably added to the sound. When it's at your knees, it sounds like you have more bass in the tone than you really have. When it's at ear level, you may think you need to crank up the bass even more because now the cab has a thin, trebly sound. Don't fall into the bass trap! Guitars need less bass than people think. The same with bass guitar....if you can feel bass, you're using too much. The object is to HEAR the bass in your tone to where it rounds things out.
 
When that is all done, then you can experiment with mics and mic placement. At least NOW, what you'll be hearing is a true representation of what your rig sounds like. Ever notice what you mic isn't what your rig sounds like? If so, having it blowing at your knees was the problem the entire time. So you should now be able to get a nice tone with just about any mic you use when placed in the right spot.
 
When mic'ing your cab, start with a low volume on the amp if possible and wear a set of headphones. Put the mic on each speaker in your cab and move it around while playing. Try each speaker in the cab to see which one ends up being "the good speaker". Once this is done, crank up your volume and go into your control room or wheever you are and see what it sounds like coming through your monitors. If the sound is harsh and trebly, move the mic away from the cone...try 45 degree angles at 2-6 inches away, try a complete 90 degree angle....there are all sorts of things to try.
 
I like to use Sennheiser 421's along with my 57's. The relationship these two mics create on a cab is well, to me pretty incredible. One without the other is like a bird lost without his/her soul mate. I've also been experimenting with the Royer mic's and have come up with some really great sounds. They are expensive, but they really give you some cool sounds to play with. That said, I wouldn't say it improved my tone by $1200.00 (R-121) or $1700.00 for an R-122. Owning a studio, I have to have loads of different mic's for each situation...so I get forced into some of these purchases to leave my options open.
 
Another thing I like to do is to run an SM-57 on every speaker. I know that sounds nuts, but if you think of it realistically, if we have a 4x12 cab, the sound that cab is giving me is not due to 1 speaker, it's due to all 4 sending out sound. So, in a sense, there's no way I'll reproduce the sound of this cab with one or two mics really.
 
Another cool thing I like to try is...walk around the room with a mic and play while dropping the mic in the spot where you stand and the amp sounds good. Like for me, I like 25 watt Celestion Greenbacks. The Greenies are very focused and sound bad after about 8 ft away. However, those babies were made for mic'n so I usually find a great spot about 2-4 ft away and put the mic where my ears hear the best sound and then turn the mic on angles until what I hear there, is what I hear standing right in the room. This really works well for me as another mic to add to the ones I may be using at close range. The cool thing there is, you get a little delay at 2-4ft that you don't get when you close mic and this can thicken up the tone.
 
So keep some of this stuff in mind. It can really be helpful and assist you in getting the right sound. Most guys think they either suck at mic'ing or the mic sucks...when in reality, it's their tone that needs work and they find this out when they bring the cab up to ear level. This gives you a whole different set of options and sounds once you set it up this way. Best of luck! :)
 
-Danny

The reason the bass sounds better when you pull the speaker of the floor is that the floor is acting like one of those walls that I mentioned will mess up your sound with the early reflections.

Pulling the speaker up off the floor gets you a 3dB boost in bass.

Any speaker. 




It's easy to figure out once you get in the habit of listening... then you move the speaker around the room till you think it sounds it's very best.

Hence the advice in post #2:

"Also try to make sure you actually listening to the speaker and not the room... if the cabinet is down on the floor and you are 6 feet tall... you're listening to the room not the speaker."




best regards,
mike

I was testing vocals on 2 mics for the past 2 days.

It was difficult to take one away and start thinking about getting a keeper take.

Finally, I just had to do it because I was spending to much time scrutinizing nearly identical tracks and I finally realized the performance only sounds great when you are working one mic or the other. Treating the pair as one big mic wasn't happening.

It's different because you don't work a mic with a guitar amp... but it was a thought process I just went through and it's at the top of my mind.


best regards,
mike

mike_mccue


The reason the bass sounds better when you pull the speaker of the floor is that the floor is acting like one of those walls that I mentioned will mess up your sound with the early reflections.

Pulling the speaker up off the floor gets you a 3dB boost in bass.

Any speaker. 

This may be true on paper in regards to the scientific explanation, but it's the furthest from the truth in reality as far as what my ears tell me. A cab on the floor gives you the impression that there is more bass than is physically there. If you raise that speaker to ear level and use the same amp settings, rest assured you hear LESS bass even if you turn up the bass knob. The tone is trebly and harsh because it was eq'd at floor level and your ears are not able to hear the harsh high end that is really in the tone.
 
The floor is definitely making a difference in the bass response, but only because the highs are not hitting your ears. AND you don't GAIN any bass by raising it that your ears can physically hear. Do the test yourself. If you gain low end from a cab being raised to ear level compared to the sound of the low end you hear blowing by your knees, you have stumbled upon something that no one else has. 
 
This is even more apparent in a high gain or hard rock situation due to the overtones brought on by distortion. Of course cleaner tones will still react with more bass on the floor than they will raised...but the over tones are not as blatant as when you're going for a rock sound. When you raise a cab to ear level that had a rock sound dialed in, it sounds nothing remotely close to what you thought you had when the cab was at your knees. Even cabs on casters that are blowing at your knees....it's not as much the floor resonating that is causing this as much as it is the highs never reaching your ears. Science may say otherwise, but trust me, it's definitely not the case when you allow your ears to call the shots. :)

-Danny

Yeah for some things they really sound cool. It depends on the cab though really and of course the sound going into the cab. I don't like them as much on my Greenback cabs, but for those vintage 30 cabs (I still can't believe people actually like them uggh...what a horrible, raspy sound) or some of the Mesa cabs or Genz Benz I have roll through here, yeah the Royers add a little something extra that isn't in the cab to begin with which (in my opinion) the cab needs and mic literally helps to control the raspiness in those speakers. I believe Van Halen used a Royer on the new album along with his 57's. They help to produce a somewhat darker tone which is really good for classic rock and some high gain rigs where the speakers you use may bring on some rasp.

I actually prefer the cheaper Royer 101 believe it or not. I find that the more sensitive and pricey a mic is, the more it doesn't seem to do a guitar sound justice. Especially with light gain hard rock/metal or blues sounds. It's almost like we don't need the extra clarity these big pricey mic's can give a guitar sound IMO. I think this is partly why 57's have been so important. You can bash the diaphragms with volume and when that happens, it actually enhances the sound in a good way. Do that to a pricey mic and well, the sound isn't very good most times unless you're mic'ing up a super clean electric. That's just been my personal experience though. Every one will have a different story and experience with this type of situation though, due to there being so many variables in what makes up a good guitar tone really.

-Danny

i miced for about 34 years.....

and moved to the palmer after figuring out just about everything i ever wanted to know about micing guitar cabs.

i can get edgy tones with that thing, i cannot get from a mic.

but, in doing so, you lose the room effect.
so i incorporate many varieties of 'micing' to add into the sonic stew


dont disregard this info, might be your missing link.
it was for me.

Once you establish a good sound at ear level, the next thing to listen for is how much bass you probably added to the sound. When it's at your knees, it sounds like you have more bass in the tone than you really have. When it's at ear level, you may think you need to crank up the bass even more because now the cab has a thin, trebly sound. Don't fall into the bass trap! Guitars need less bass than people think. The same with bass guitar....if you can feel bass, you're using too much. The object is to HEAR the bass in your tone to where it rounds things out.  

Danny Danzi

I grew up with this defect! When I was in high school, I was always trying to get guitars to sound bassier. The first time someone showed me the riff to Black Dog, I said, "No way...that can't be right. It's too high."

The best bet is to set up a number of mics in various positions and distances and the experiment a bit. Every recording environment presents a different acoustical profile and no two situations are the same. The SM-57s are pretty much are standard, but if you are going to be cranking it up, it doesn't make sense to use use high end mics unless you already have them and possibly want to destroy them. Also, if you have Celestions in the amp it makes little difference because they are going to sound like crap no matter what. The line out boxes will give you your preamp sound but you lose the tonal dynamics of the speakers. If you use attenuators or power soaks, you also lose a bit of the tonal dynamics of the speaker cone stress of high volumes. The bottom line is try a few different things and see what sounds good to you.

mike_mccue


One thing I've been finding with the Royers and AEAs is that I can push the highs with a shelf... using something as simple as Sonnitus... and the highs sound incredibly smooth and silky.

It's like having a hardware pultec kinda vibe baked into the signal. At first, someone may not hear it or go looking for it yet when I have needed to push the high shelf I have been surprised to find out how far I can push it as it just seems to sound really good. 

Sometimes I plan on doing it because you can end up with a nice sound.

I'd never push a condenser that hard, primarily because they already have a lot of presence but also because the hi frequency sound isn't as smooth and silky. There's just more of it.


Someday I want grab a pair of the Beyer Dynamic M160s to mix it up a bit.


best regards,
mike

Yeah, and that's the good thing about them. With most other mic's, you have to take the highs out. These add in some nice warmth. When you use a 421 or a 57 along with them, the "entity" sound is really nice and gives you loads of options. But that's one thing with those Royers...you can literally push highs and not get that abrasive rasp you get with 57's.
 
-Danny

Rain


Bats, you've mentioned it a few times and you got me curious about those little Palmer box. 
I'm putting one on my "wishlist".

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