danbottomburp
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/06 12:48:34
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Daibhidh
Dan, so if they require us to purchase in order to have software, they're not evil, but if they give it away so that customers will become more familiar with their other premium services, they're diabolically evil?
What's with the "Good&Evil" stuff ? this isn't some Star Wars sub Reddit,i never said anything about them being "evil" i'm well aware of how the "free" program models work and that is the reason i avoid them.i switched to REAPER/Studio ONE when Sonar ceased and i will not be returning oh to be so gullible 
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Resonant Serpent
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/06 14:14:36
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danbottomburp
Daibhidh
Dan, so if they require us to purchase in order to have software, they're not evil, but if they give it away so that customers will become more familiar with their other premium services, they're diabolically evil?
What's with the "Good&Evil" stuff ? this isn't some Star Wars sub Reddit,i never said anything about them being "evil"
i'm well aware of how the "free" program models work and that is the reason i avoid them.i switched to REAPER/Studio ONE when Sonar ceased and i will not be returning
oh to be so gullible
"Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya."
A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far blackness of the night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world. - Aldo Leopold
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iRelevant
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/06 16:32:37
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danbottomburp
Daibhidh
Dan, so if they require us to purchase in order to have software, they're not evil, but if they give it away so that customers will become more familiar with their other premium services, they're diabolically evil?
What's with the "Good&Evil" stuff ? this isn't some Star Wars sub Reddit,i never said anything about them being "evil"
i'm well aware of how the "free" program models work and that is the reason i avoid them.i switched to REAPER/Studio ONE when Sonar ceased and i will not be returning
oh to be so gullible
That's funny :) Do you really think those who choose to capitalize on big data, drops that opportunity for extra revenue just because you paid for the product ? Why do you think all of a sudden everyone have become paranoid about their privacy and data ? Data have been collected since the first telephone pole was put up, in case you didn't know ;) [Edit] This comment is for free btw.
post edited by iRelevant - 2018/06/06 16:56:24
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shayne.oneill
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/06 17:35:17
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To those worried about the bleed of users towards the end of the Gibson/Sonar era, have some faith in this free version. Here I am and I'm pleased so far, at least on a sample size of one, its working for me. Having had my $4K+ mac boosted out of my house by a burglar I've had to leave the Logic Pro nest for the first time in a long time, played with the Sonar demo and then blammo Heres Cakewalk. Sold. Granted I'm kinda missing Logics supurb built in instrument library (Theres really nothing in its class, and I've spent a bloody mortgage over the decades on DAWs)
That said, Bandlab should perhaps spend a bit of time reviewing a bit of the UIX. She's a powerful beastie, but some stuff could perhaps do with being a bit more...... discoverable. Figuring out how to route midi took me a good hour of head scratching and forum reading before I finally found the option to make visible the channel/bank/patch selections. I think having some fresh eyes, coupled with an Agile dev cycle to straighten out some of the crustier aspects of the UI and workflow could really sell people looking for a cheaper alternative to Cubase or Protools and beyond and if the thing remains free, Reaper and the cheapo daws are in serious trouble.
Also Bandlab, whoever makes that Rhodes plugin in the Sonar demo, buy them. That thing is beautiful.
Oh and wtf is up with the Video support? That..... needs work. Bloody thing throws up all over itself with anything using the rarer but important to industry codecs (red/etc).
But yeah, I think theres a future here, as long as Sonar gets some work on its UIX, and a few niggles (Video!!!!) its a very capable piece of software.
Oh and while I'm wish listing, I'd love to see some work done on the score view. I'm often scoring for shorts and radio plays and stuff, and Sonars score view really needs some work, particularly if theres some way to set up articulations and mapping them to the triggers(etc) of our ROMplers of choice.
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FDN
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/06 22:12:59
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I am using Cakewalk since 1993 ("Cakewalk Apprentice", bundled with the "Wave Blaster" soundcard, started it all...  ), so obviously I am quite used to Sonar and will try to stick to it. So I was happy to hear about Bandlab & I started using CbB. Biggest question for me is: where is the catch with CbB being free? I mean, Bandlab isn't doing this for charity, and looking forward, I cannot imagine that CbB will stay on par with the "pro" solutions by others (Cubase, Logic, etc.) and still cost nothing. So either there will be no real development going forward, or they will introduce some sort of fee model. Wonder what that could be. (Plus, I hope there is no hidden "trap", like: all music done with CbB becomes the property of Bandlab  )
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mettelus
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/06 22:56:10
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iRelevant
[Edit] This comment is for free btw.
That was funny too 
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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mariogag
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 01:03:43
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facebook is free and it is worth...what...billions.
M
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abacab
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 01:22:50
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FDN
(Plus, I hope there is no hidden "trap", like: all music done with CbB becomes the property of Bandlab )
Nope!
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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chris.r
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 02:07:32
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shayne.oneill
That said, Bandlab should perhaps spend a bit of time reviewing a bit of the UIX. She's a powerful beastie, but some stuff could perhaps do with being a bit more...... discoverable. Figuring out how to route midi took me a good hour of head scratching and forum reading before I finally found the option to make visible the channel/bank/patch selections. I think having some fresh eyes, coupled with an Agile dev cycle to straighten out some of the crustier aspects of the UI and workflow could really sell people looking for a cheaper alternative to Cubase or Protools and beyond and if the thing remains free, Reaper and the cheapo daws are in serious trouble. Really good point. I'm working on Cakewalk software since Twelve Tone Systems and I know you can do many operations in a lot of different ways which is easy for me. But I can imagine someone coming from another DAW world and newbies having loads of head scratches due to GUI overload and some non-intuitiveness here and there. Also Bandlab, whoever makes that Rhodes plugin in the Sonar demo, buy them. That thing is beautiful. Lol! That's Applied Acoustics Systems Lounge Lizard, doubt it's for sale. Good sample based libraries like GM Neo Soul Keys or Scarbee are still better than that, but this one is often called the "Pianoteq" in virtual EP plugins world. Oh and while I'm wish listing, I'd love to see some work done on the score view. I'm often scoring for shorts and radio plays and stuff, and Sonars score view really needs some work, particularly if theres some way to set up articulations and mapping them to the triggers(etc) of our ROMplers of choice. Again, good point.
post edited by chris.r - 2018/06/07 14:46:51
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noynekker
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 02:11:26
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. . . could we just rename this thread "The Conspiracy Theories Thread" ?
Take a deep breath and try to remember that they revived our beloved Cakewalk from a dead end future.
Yeah, brought it back from the edge of catastrophe.
It's free because the hard part is already done and programmed. It's free because there are too many DAWs that do the same thing in different ways. It's free because the company that bought it can afford it to be free. It's free for the same reason that Windows 10 and MAC 10 are free. It's free because it eliminates the need to even bother to compete in the DAW wars . . . a nice war, where no one dies. It's free because it helps marketing gurus to connect with the masses, in order to sell you other related products in the future. It's free because the game of chess has been played the same old way for far too long.
rant over . . . resume normal programming
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Cubase, RME Babyface Pro, Intel i7 3770K @3.5Ghz, Asus P8Z77-VPro/Thunderbolt, 32GB DDR3 RAM, GeForce GTX 660 Ti, 250 GB OS SSD, 2TB HDD samples, Win 10 Pro 64 bit, backed up by Macrium Reflect, Novation Impulse 61 Midi Key Controller, Tannoy Active Near Field Monitors, Guitars by Vantage, Gibson, Yamaki and Ovation.
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Daibhidh
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 02:14:39
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dubdisciple
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 16:27:13
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mariogag
facebook is free and it is worth...what...billions.
M
Facebook is not a good example considering the controversies involving personal data.
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dubdisciple
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 16:33:43
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I have watched too many products in my lifetime go from "also-ran" to trend overnight to count out Cakewalk. FL Studio went from shareware like product to one of the leading DAWs used in pop music because a few big names in respective genres ,made mega-hits with it, spawning imitators.
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iRelevant
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 19:57:24
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dubdisciple
I have watched too many products in my lifetime go from "also-ran" to trend overnight to count out Cakewalk. FL Studio went from shareware like product to one of the leading DAWs used in pop music because a few big names in respective genres ,made mega-hits with it, spawning imitators.
May I ask what year this big name stuff happened ? At what point was it considered hot ?
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urock
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 20:43:38
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noynekker
. . . could we just rename this thread "The Conspiracy Theories Thread" ?
Take a deep breath and try to remember that they revived our beloved Cakewalk from a dead end future.
Yeah, brought it back from the edge of catastrophe.
It's free because the hard part is already done and programmed. It's free because there are too many DAWs that do the same thing in different ways. It's free because the company that bought it can afford it to be free. It's free for the same reason that Windows 10 and MAC 10 are free. It's free because it eliminates the need to even bother to compete in the DAW wars . . . a nice war, where no one dies. It's free because it helps marketing gurus to connect with the masses, in order to sell you other related products in the future. It's free because the game of chess has been played the same old way for far too long.
Nice points. Plus, CbB now has an edge in the DAW Wars that only Reaper had before - a wealthy benefactor. That has effectively allowed Reaper to have the loosest copy protection in the business (based on trust - which is laudable). Now CbB has eclipsed that with its free status. And unless Justin's invested really well since he earned his WinAmp payoff, Meng and his family's business are in another $ league. Plus Meng seems interested and committed to CbB. That may change in the future but Avid could go out of business, Cubase could be sold again, etc. - you get the point. So, life is good in Cakewalk land. The best it has been in quite some time. Enjoy! Now if they would just make that Mac version. urock
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abacab
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 20:57:05
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☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/06/07 21:04:29
urock
Now if they would just make that Mac version.
Waiting for the Mac version ... 
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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dubdisciple
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 21:31:48
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iRelevant
dubdisciple
I have watched too many products in my lifetime go from "also-ran" to trend overnight to count out Cakewalk. FL Studio went from shareware like product to one of the leading DAWs used in pop music because a few big names in respective genres ,made mega-hits with it, spawning imitators.
May I ask what year this big name stuff happened ? At what point was it considered hot ?
Not sure if you are being serious or not, but I could list tons, but will start with one that may have started the popularity in the mainstream. I hate this song, but it was huge: "Crank That (Soulja Boy)" spent seven weeks at number one on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100in the fall of 2007, and was the number 21 on the Rolling Stone magazine's list of the 100 Best Songs of 2007. [4] The song received a nomination for a Grammy Award for Best Rap Song..." First song ever to sell 3 million digitally. Oddly enough, it was made using the demo. In addition , songs by the likes of Eminem (Love the Way You Lie), Deadmaus (6 grammy nominations), Drake and Lil Wayne regularly use music produced on FL. I could rattle off number one billboard hot 100 after hot 100 hit ,made on Fl since.
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iRelevant
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 22:35:15
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dubdisciple
iRelevant
dubdisciple
I have watched too many products in my lifetime go from "also-ran" to trend overnight to count out Cakewalk. FL Studio went from shareware like product to one of the leading DAWs used in pop music because a few big names in respective genres ,made mega-hits with it, spawning imitators.
May I ask what year this big name stuff happened ? At what point was it considered hot ?
Not sure if you are being serious or not, but I could list tons, but will start with one that may have started the popularity in the mainstream. I hate this song, but it was huge:
"Crank That (Soulja Boy)" spent seven weeks at number one on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100in the fall of 2007, and was the number 21 on the Rolling Stone magazine's list of the 100 Best Songs of 2007.[4] The song received a nomination for a Grammy Award for Best Rap Song..." First song ever to sell 3 million digitally. Oddly enough, it was made using the demo.
In addition , songs by the likes of Eminem (Love the Way You Lie), Deadmaus (6 grammy nominations), Drake and Lil Wayne regularly use music produced on FL. I could rattle off number one billboard hot 100 after hot 100 hit ,made on Fl since.
Thanks, I've been living under a rock :) I've been following FL since the early V1 beta days. Thought I was a outsider, then I joined their forum in 2012 and see everyone's talking about how it's hot ****. I thought it was just hype to make people feel good about themselves. Never heard of Soulja Boy, did a quick Soundcloud scan ... doesn't look like I missed anything :) Thanks for the update.
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Anderton
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/07 23:52:03
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☄ Helpfulby iRelevant 2018/06/08 09:30:01
noynekker
. . . could we just rename this thread "The Conspiracy Theories Thread" ? Some people here don't understand that business isn't just "sell widget = receive money" any more, especially if a business is a division of a much larger company. That even applies to those who think data is a widget...it may or may not be. It's free because the hard part is already done and programmed. It's free because there are too many DAWs that do the same thing in different ways. It's free because the company that bought it can afford it to be free. It's free for the same reason that Windows 10 and MAC 10 are free. It's free because it eliminates the need to even bother to compete in the DAW wars . . . a nice war, where no one dies. It's free because it helps marketing gurus to connect with the masses, in order to sell you other related products in the future. It's free because the game of chess has been played the same old way for far too long.
Absolutely, to which I would add... - BandLab probably got more press for reviving Sonar in one month than Cakewalk got for the monthly updates in a year.
- Maybe BandLab will finally implement add-ons which you can choose to buy or not.
- They got a ton of good code to use in other products.
- They can keep people in the BandLab ecosystem who grow beyond the basics. Customer retention is very expensive, and CbB provides an inexpensive customer retention mechanism.
- More people will try it and put videos and such out on the web...promotion that costs BandLab nothing.
- People who drifted away from Cakewalk over the years can try the program, be pleasantly surprised at what they missed, and get sucked back in...and maybe buy some of the add-ons one day :)
As I've said before, you can look at CbB (in its current form) as a lousy profit center, or as a brilliantly efficient, and low cost (over the long haul) marketing expense. I have no idea how BandLab looks at it, but that's what I see.
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dubdisciple
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 03:07:27
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Song was garbage but huge. At any given point during the year there are multiple fl produced songs in top 40. Lots of them are garbage as well but very popular garbage
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stratman70
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 03:27:17
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GjB
Cakewalk by BandLab.
If people don't like it or use it - then wtf are they doing here?
(I don't hang around in the Mac forums and say that I prefer Windows.)
I mentioned that over a month ago. I was chastised for it. But I still do NOT get it. You wanna keep up with the news, OK, fine. READ the forum. But why post. Mind boggling.
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noynekker
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 04:14:19
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dubdisciple
Song was garbage but huge. At any given point during the year there are multiple fl produced songs in top 40. Lots of them are garbage as well but very popular garbage
I think what you're saying is that song "quality" is opinion based ? Your chosen DAW does not define you as a music creator. "Song was garbage but huge" sounds like a sad reflection on the current state of the music creation industry. I don't believe the "Top 40" is even relevant anymore in an internet music market. Top 40 on which site ?
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Cubase, RME Babyface Pro, Intel i7 3770K @3.5Ghz, Asus P8Z77-VPro/Thunderbolt, 32GB DDR3 RAM, GeForce GTX 660 Ti, 250 GB OS SSD, 2TB HDD samples, Win 10 Pro 64 bit, backed up by Macrium Reflect, Novation Impulse 61 Midi Key Controller, Tannoy Active Near Field Monitors, Guitars by Vantage, Gibson, Yamaki and Ovation.
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dubdisciple
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 06:50:10
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noynekker
dubdisciple
Song was garbage but huge. At any given point during the year there are multiple fl produced songs in top 40. Lots of them are garbage as well but very popular garbage
I think what you're saying is that song "quality" is opinion based ?
Your chosen DAW does not define you as a music creator.
"Song was garbage but huge" sounds like a sad reflection on the current state of the music creation industry.
I don't believe the "Top 40" is even relevant anymore in an internet music market. Top 40 on which site ?
My garbage comment wasn’t so much a reflection on industry, but a simple personal opinion on the song . I didn’t care for it. Pop music has always produced successful songs that were not considered great by critics. Fortunately for artists, it’s paying fans that matter more than critics. When I say “top 40” I was talking Billboard. My point was not to claim any DAW defined a person but simply that a hit song or two can change fortunes overnight. At the time Soulja Boy made his hit, FL was considered more of a techno tool. A young,aspiring hip hop artist was more apt to get an mpc, keyboard workstation like Motiff or Triton or Reason if going DAW route. Image-Line did nothing special. It just happened that production styles shifted to methods that favored what was already in FL.
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pwalpwal
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 09:18:55
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☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/06/08 14:53:08
Anderton
Some people here don't understand that business isn't just "sell widget = receive money" any more, especially if a business is a division of a much larger company. That even applies to those who think data is a widget...it may or may not be.
yeah, back in the day business was a lot more transparent... there have been several posts asking how bandlab will make money if sonar is free, but no answer has been forthcoming, no wonder people are paranoid
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iRelevant
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 09:28:22
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dubdisciple
Song was garbage but huge. At any given point during the year there are multiple fl produced songs in top 40. Lots of them are garbage as well but very popular garbage
Incredible. No wonder I was almost ousted from the forum when I proposed they make a retro edtion :)
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iRelevant
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 10:10:15
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pwalpwal
Anderton
Some people here don't understand that business isn't just "sell widget = receive money" any more, especially if a business is a division of a much larger company. That even applies to those who think data is a widget...it may or may not be.
yeah, back in the day business was a lot more transparent... there have been several posts asking how bandlab will make money if sonar is free, but no answer has been forthcoming, no wonder people are paranoid
Well as they say, only the paranoid survive :) I really don't think you can expect anybody to explain their business plans to you, as long as your not a share holder. There are such things as business secrets, and if explained ... and the explanation is good ... it will be copied in the fraction of a second. I also think it has been explained by Meng how BandLab have other sources of revenue, and don't need Cakewalk to be profitable. If Cakewalk were the only leg they where standing on, of course it would be a cause for concern ... but it's not.
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azslow3
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 12:23:59
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☄ Helpfulby dj squarewave 2018/06/08 12:28:58
urock
Plus, CbB now has an edge in the DAW Wars that only Reaper had before - a wealthy benefactor. That has effectively allowed Reaper to have the loosest copy protection in the business (based on trust - which is laudable). Now CbB has eclipsed that with its free status.
Notice significant differences at the moment: * CbB is "free" as a plug-in for $0 with iLock. Yes, you can get it for free, but it still has copyright protection with on-line authorization. Without any explanation why. * The last time I have tried to find it, I have failed. Where is " CbB EULA?" Without it, there is no known "game rules". Fine for a "freebie", but I do not know how someone case use it seriously.
And unless Justin's invested really well since he earned his WinAmp payoff, Meng and his family's business are in another $ league. Plus Meng seems interested and committed to CbB.
The power of Justin is not in money, as many people here periodically argue. He spends $0 on marketing, he spends $0 on "company infrastructure" and (I guess) he spends $0 on sub-licenses. But he and John are good "old style" (in terms of preferring conservative and proved by time ideas over bleeding edge wrappers) programmers, the fact everyone can check not only in the result but also in the source (Cockos has several open-source projects). Meng&Co has proved they can do not so bad web based apps (Bandlab), but the desktop app (Assistant) looks like a disaster for me. Cakewalk (DAW) is developed by the same people which, let face that, have failed to advance it during more then 10 years. With time I understand that Sonar was a brilliant program, with tons of innovative concepts and reasonable implementations of them. It was so good that even after 15 years (of no real changes) face-lifted incarnation of it is not bad. With several aspects which still beat concurrents. But without evidence it is going to be advanced (and sorry, I do not observe such evidence since the first day I use it), there can be no questions about the future. It is a brilliant "vintage" past...
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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msmcleod
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 12:40:25
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☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/06/08 15:00:39
I think we have to look at the reality of where CbB is right now.
Pretty soon after the announcement of Cakewalk Inc's demise, a fair amount of people migrated to other DAWs. Obviously Meng as the new owner wanted to limit the damage here, hence the rush to get an early access out as soon as possible.
Buying a portion of assets from a company in a lot of ways is far more complex than buying a whole company.
If BandLab had bought Cakewalk Inc outright, then things like EULA, all the products, 3rd party agreements etc could have stayed in place.
Buying the assets means that there's a bunch of untangling to do with regard to de-coupling the assets from Cakewalk Inc, and a whole lot of integration to do to make the new assets fit into BandLab's processes and infrastructure.
This process is obviously still ongoing, so I think it would be wrong of us to judge CbB by what we're seeing right now. To my mind, what we've got now is still an early access product, that will hopefully limit the amount of users permanently moving over to other DAWs, and that BandLab are keen to make as good as possible (with our help & feedback) before they officially release it with all the pomp.
Mark McLeod Cakewalk by BL | ASUS P8B75-V, Intel I5 3570 16GB RAM Win 10 64 + Win 7 64/32 SSD HD's, Scarlett 18i20 / 6i6 | ASUS ROG GL552VW 16GB RAM Win 10 64 SSD HD's, Scarlett 2i2 | Behringer Truth B2030A / Edirol MA-5A | Mackie MCU + C4 + XT | 2 x BCF2000, Korg NanoKontrol Studio
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bapu
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 14:13:41
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☄ Helpfulby Starise 2018/06/08 14:16:41
The only consensus I have is that CbB is as good if not a little better than SONAR Platinum.
I own other DAWs that do somethings more brilliantly than CbB but may be lacking in other areas. Such is life.
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Starise
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Re: So what's the consensus now?
2018/06/08 14:19:09
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Consensus seems to have been reached. General consensus that is. Sometimes snowflakes fall in the summer.
Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, , 3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface. CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 www.soundcloud.com/starise Twitter @Rodein
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