So who is moving to Protools HD Native ?

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wormser
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2010/10/08 02:00:58 (permalink)

So who is moving to Protools HD Native ?

Yes folks it's been announced....
Big Bronx cheer for our friends at Avid.

OMG did they ever miss the boat on this one.
Almost $6000.00 with an Omni IO.

I suppose PT HD1 fans will be chomping at the bit, literally, but I don't see the market for others.
BTW, looks like you can run other DAW software with it, which means probably Sonar as well.
Don't know why you would though.

This might be a decent deal at say $1799 but at $6000.00 it's way, way over priced.

You can buy Sonar, Cubase, Reaper, Logic, whatever, a very good audio card/converters and a middle of the pack UAD card for less than $6k and have a far more flexible system.

Am I missing the pot of gold on this one?

P.S. Don't know where this goes, move as needed.


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    Rain
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 02:19:44 (permalink)
    Not unless they make it VST compatible, so that we can use UAD powered plug-ins... ;)




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    #2
    tyacko
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 08:16:48 (permalink)
    From what I've understood there is a VST to RTAS wrapper that could be used.  I'm not sure how effective (and efficient) it is though.  This wrapper could be used with the UAD stuff.

    Either way, I agree with the OP as this seems like a pretty steep cost just to consider a move.  In the end, you would probably want to use TDM plugs and those are almost always more expensive than VSTs.  So, again it still doesn't seem like the right move.

    I've been very happy with my current Sonar setup (especially with my UAD cards).  It gives me the kind of mixes I've been hoping for, so I ain't movin'.

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    #3
    Rain
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 08:46:19 (permalink)
    Actually, I agree w/ the OP - was just trying to be facetious. ;) 

    A native version could fill the gap between full fledged HD systems and the crippled down LE version. I imagine this could address the needs of studios running a HD rig and wishing to add one or a couple of secondary Pro Tools workstations at a lower cost w/o running into the limitations of LE.

    But for the rest of the world, I don't really see the advantage.

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    #4
    Jose7822
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 08:50:50 (permalink)
    Yeap,

    I read about this at the Gearslutz forums about a week ago.  Someone there claimed his college instructor was beta testing a new Pro Tools that didn't require a dongle on his laptop.  Everyone there was skeptical about it, but the guy seemed genuine, and now we can see that he wasn't lying.  I think Avid made the right move though, except it is still way too expensive.  They would totally crush the market if they lowered the price a bit though.


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    wintaper
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 08:55:57 (permalink)
    huge discussion about this on gearslutz ...

    http://www.gearslutz.com/board/pro-tools-hd-goes-native/536933-protools-native.html


    but what exactly is that $3500 card doing if it's not running TDM plugs or DSP processors?



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    #6
    Jose7822
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 09:07:33 (permalink)
    wintaper


    but what exactly is that $3500 card doing if it's not running TDM plugs or DSP processors?
    Oh wow, you're right.  They screwed up BIG time!
     
    It still got track limits and all.  If you're gonna go native, at least do it the right way.
     
     

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    #7
    Azura
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 09:55:52 (permalink)
    but what exactly is that $3500 card doing if it's not running TDM plugs or DSP processors?

    A dongle...


    Marc

    Marc from Azura
    #8
    montezuma
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 10:29:42 (permalink)
    What does it mean by 'native'?
    #9
    Meffy
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 10:44:26 (permalink)
    montezuma

    What does it mean by 'native'?

    Ordinarily I'd be able to answer, but after reading up a bit, in this instance I can't guess how Avid are using the word.

    Just a wild guess, but I reckon I'll be sticking with Sonar for a loooong time. (Not that I've ever been tempted by PT, but this tempts me no more than ever.)
    #10
    johnnyV
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 11:10:48 (permalink)
    A dongle..
    What does it mean by 'native'?

    Well if you look at old National Geographic Mags they used to feature Natives sporting their dongles, That all I can figure. 
    post edited by johnnyV - 2010/10/08 11:11:53

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    wetdentist
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 14:25:01 (permalink)
    boy, that sure sounds like a great deal! (insert sarcasm wherever)

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    dontletmedrown
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 16:09:53 (permalink)
    I will be.  Part of the reason I chose an Aroura16 was so that I could someday integrate it with PT once I save up enough.  I really enjoy editing (did I just type that?!?) in Pro Tools and mixing is very efficient with the way it manages groups and automation.  The price is steep, but the way I see it-- it's still $9K cheaper than an HD3 setup and there is the possibility for me to eventually connect two Aroura16s which is pretty handy. 

    Since PTN is only 1 card, I'll still keep my AES16e installed so I can easily switch back and forth between Sonar and PT.  I'll probably continue to use Sonar for composition and softsynth work.  Anyways it's not going to be an immediate thing.  Still gotta save up the cash.
    post edited by dontletmedrown - 2010/10/08 16:15:13
    #13
    BRainbow
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 17:02:59 (permalink)
    johnnyV


    A dongle..
    What does it mean by 'native'?

    Well if you look at old National Geographic Mags they used to feature Natives sporting their dongles, That all I can figure. 




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    Rain
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 18:25:46 (permalink)
    Digidesign (well, Avid) sells hardware. If the potential market they were aiming at w/ this thing was users like us, this would seem like a desperate attempt at cashing on the name Pro Tools to sell hardware. But I think they do have plenty of potential customers, particularly among people who already own PT HD. It bridges the gap between Le and HD.

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    dr.hash
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 18:49:30 (permalink)
    So what is the price? Are we really talking about 3000 or 6000 dollars for a card and Pro Fools, that has no DSP processing at all? If so then somebody is trying to destroy Pro Fools.  Nobody in their right mind would go for that **** unless the converters are gold and by gold giving us somewhere over the rainbow dynamic range of at least 120db or more.

    Avid are up to some strange things all their new Pro Fools boxes are basically the same design as the M-Audio stuff and once again I would not touch anything from them.  They make the most horrible sounding boxes (OK I have only heard one of their boxes but I hated it, it accentuated the mids far too much, did I mention it was made of plastic) and did I mention that they are all made with cheap plastic like the M-Audio boxes.

    All I can say is yea keep destroying Pro Fools Avid!!!!

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    #16
    Rain
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 19:19:29 (permalink)
    dr.hash


    So what is the price? Are we really talking about 3000 or 6000 dollars for a card and Pro Fools, that has no DSP processing at all? If so then somebody is trying to destroy Pro Fools.  Nobody in their right mind would go for that **** unless the converters are gold and by gold giving us somewhere over the rainbow dynamic range of at least 120db or more.

    Avid are up to some strange things all their new Pro Fools boxes are basically the same design as the M-Audio stuff and once again I would not touch anything from them.  They make the most horrible sounding boxes (OK I have only heard one of their boxes but I hated it, it accentuated the mids far too much, did I mention it was made of plastic) and did I mention that they are all made with cheap plastic like the M-Audio boxes.

    All I can say is yea keep destroying Pro Fools Avid!!!!

    “In Search Of The Lost Digital Chord”
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    Depends which M Audio interface - the Delta breakout boxes (aluminium) are as solid as it gets. Had mine for 10 years. No complains. Rock solid drivers. Decent converters. Of course there are better, but that's not the point.


    The HD PCI card is $3500. You still have to buy an actual audio interface for the i/o.



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    #17
    dontletmedrown
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 19:46:06 (permalink)
    dr.hash


    Nobody in their right mind would go for that... 

    Lol!  Yes because you are obviously the perfect spokesman for people in their right mind.  News flash:  many studios have already spent 3-4 times that amount on their PT setups, so people who are accustomed to working on PTHD will see this as a much better value. 
    post edited by dontletmedrown - 2010/10/08 19:47:26
    #18
    jimmyrage
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 20:03:57 (permalink)
    Azura


    but what exactly is that $3500 card doing if it's not running TDM plugs or DSP processors?

    A dongle...


    Marc

    Good one!
    #19
    bitflipper
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 20:17:36 (permalink)
    ...that didn't require a dongle

    Oh, it's got a dongle, all right. Not one of those $30 plastic ones, though! This one's a thousand bucks and plugs into a PCI slot. You didn't think they'd let you run PT on a laptop, did you? Maybe edit some files on the plane? Cut some demos in the tour bus? Oh no, that wouldn't be very Professional. You'll need something NON-professional for that, like Reaper, Cubase, Logic, Digital Performer, Audition, SONAR or Garage Band.

    Granted, for six grand you do get delay compensation, so there's that.


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    yorolpal
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 21:30:58 (permalink)
    At last ol CornBeef and I can agree.  An inferior system that many people get only because
    "it's expected" of them by certain uninformed clients for that kind of money??  Sic em CornBeef, ol pal.  I'm with ya.
     
    PS: Liked "Can't Stand Up".  Wish I could understand the lyrics on most of the rest.
    post edited by yorolpal - 2010/10/08 21:32:52

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    #21
    mcdoma2000
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/08 22:18:26 (permalink)
    Another thing that I noticed on the Avid site is that it will not run TDM effects. I have a friend that has a production studio with ProTools and he runs MOSTLY TDM effects. That seems like a pretty big hole. Probably trying to not totally kill the cash cow.
    #22
    DonM
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/09 08:00:33 (permalink)
    I'll add here ..... the 'Native' terminology was chosen very specifically to distinguish this product from it's big brother (or sister depending on your choice) - in a future rev Native will support non-real-time- bounce - they had to move from the cards to do that and they didn't want to anger the owners of the big systems with NRTB since they are card bound ... you heard it here first ....

    -D
    #23
    mike_mccue
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/09 08:37:41 (permalink)
    word.

    I enjoy using a StudioCat DAW.
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    UnderTow
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/09 08:50:49 (permalink)

    I thought I might address some of the point in this thread so that you all can at least make fun of Pro Tools with the right facts. ;-)

    wormser


    OMG did they ever miss the boat on this one.
    Almost $6000.00 with an Omni IO.

    Which is a lot less than the price of an HD systems and comparable to the price of some the products in this market segment. The product is essentially a $1000 64 digital I/O sound card (Not unlike an RME MADI card) that runs at 32 samples (at it's lowest setting) and a $2500 piece of software not unlike Nuendo, Sequoia, Pyramix, Fairlight.

    Are they aiming at the Sonar crowd? Clearly not.
    I suppose PT HD1 fans will be chomping at the bit, literally, but I don't see the market for others.
    BTW, looks like you can run other DAW software with it, which means probably Sonar as well.
    Don't know why you would though.
    That would be interesting if you need Pro Tools for certain project and other applications for other things.
    This might be a decent deal at say $1799 but at $6000.00 it's way, way over priced.

    It is 3500$. As I wrote above, that is similar to other products in the market. Note that you don't need to use an Avid break out box like the Omni I/O. You can also use products from Lynx, SSL, Apogee and maybe a few more.
    You can buy Sonar, Cubase, Reaper, Logic, whatever, a very good audio card/converters and a middle of the pack UAD card for less than $6k and have a far more flexible system.

    Sonar isn't in the same league as PT HD Native nor are the others. You have to compare to products that offer the same kind of functionality. They are priced similarly. (Logic is never a good comparison price wise anyway as Apple have priced it specifically to sell more Macs. Not to make a direct profit on the product itself).

    Rain

    Not unless they make it VST compatible, so that we can use UAD powered plug-ins... ;)
    You would use the RTAS versions of the UAD plugins. For other VST plugins you can use the FXPansion VST adapter.

    Jose7822

    It still got track limits and all.  If you're gonna go native, at least do it the right way.
    As I wrote in another thread, 192 tracks, 128 Instrument tracks, 160 aux tracks (+VCA tracks and some other sutff) and 64 I/O's  at 32 samples of latency is nothing to sneeze at.

    wintaper
    but what exactly is that $3500 card doing if it's not running TDM plugs or DSP processors?
    It is a 64 digital I/O card that runs at 32 samples of buffer. The rest of the price is for the software. Get yourself a RME MADI interface (which only goes down to 48 samples AFAIK) and Sequoia and you are paying quite a bit more than $3500.

    montezuma

    What does it mean by 'native'?
    Everything except the I/O and low latency monitoring runs on the native processors of you PC/Mac.

    dontletmedrown

    I will be.  Part of the reason I chose an Aroura16 was so that I could someday integrate it with PT once I save up enough.  I really enjoy editing (did I just type that?!?) in Pro Tools and mixing is very efficient with the way it manages groups and automation.  The price is steep, but the way I see it-- it's still $9K cheaper than an HD3 setup and there is the possibility for me to eventually connect two Aroura16s which is pretty handy. 

    And that is the clincher. It is only once you have worked with PT HD that you can understand what it is all about. Despite what a lot of people here might think, Sonar is not in the same league.

    Rain

    It bridges the gap between Le and HD.

    Exactly. Price wise, it is right in between.

    dr.hash

    Nobody in their right mind would go for that **** unless the converters are gold
    You could get a DAD box which is gold coloured: http://www.digitalaudio.dk/ax24_present.htm  ;-)  (121 dB Dynamic range!)

    bitflipper

    You didn't think they'd let you run PT on a laptop, did you?
    According to the PT HD Native product manager they are looking at an ExpressCard version for the future.

    mcdoma2000

    Another thing that I noticed on the Avid site is that it will not run TDM effects. I have a friend that has a production studio with ProTools and he runs MOSTLY TDM effects. That seems like a pretty big hole. Probably trying to not totally kill the cash cow.

    On a PT HD rig you would indeed mostly use TDM plugins. For one because you already have the TDM DSP available. It would be strange not to sue it but also because RTAS plugins add latency (the signal has to be crated from the DSP chips to the CPU and back). On a Native systems, any TDM plugin that has an RTAS equivalent would work just as well as the TDM version.

    The reason there is no TDM in the Native version is because TDM is not compatible with host CPUs. They would have to write some kind of Motorola DSP emulator to run the TDM plugins. Not only would that probably be more complicated than writing an entire DAW, but it would also be very slow. It wouldn't make any sense really.

    I suspect that with the launch of PT HD Native, more developers will port their TDM plugins to RTAS. Now there is a new market of users that clearly have some money to spend on RATS plugins but that don't have access to TDM hardware.

    UnderTow
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    dr.hash
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/09 19:12:37 (permalink)
    yorolpal


    At last ol CornBeef and I can agree.  An inferior system that many people get only because
    "it's expected" of them by certain uninformed clients for that kind of money??  Sic em CornBeef, ol pal.  I'm with ya.
     
    PS: Liked "Can't Stand Up".  Wish I could understand the lyrics on most of the rest.

    Thank you yorolpal, does this mean we can call a truce.  If so I am sorry.  I can be an ass but I believe in being a bit of a cowboy as you might understand from my song.  I believe the world needs cowboy's anti-heroes people who will go were angels fear to tread so to speak.  This means I can rub people up the wrong way I have been compared to sandpaper and have been called Mr.Sandpaper. 
     
    We as an industry that is the creative side of our industry are in some real trouble, i know there are good bands out there but the day of the band is dead, we are now in the age of the composer.  Our tools, DAW, cards and the like have given us the power Beethoven and Mozart would have killed for and creamed their jocks over.  Let Their Be More Light, and Let Their Be A New Golden Age of Digital Music.  This is a new age, The Digital Age, The Digital Paradigm.
     
    The guy trumpeting the virtue's of Pro Fools is obviously a plant from Avid go away please, Pro Fools is like The Republic in Star Wars.  How can one program in everybody's studio be a good thing it's called homogenization and sounds a bit like Nazism to me(you must use this card and this software and this plug) death to the empire. Yes those converters do sound like gold but it is still Pro Fools.  Still no dedicated Piano Roll windows, still naf plugs included.  Still one of the worse sounding Audio Engines in the business(OK bit of an over simplification of things, my woman uses Pro Fools LE but she knows how to use it: I taught her the semantics of Digital Recording) still no possibility of using this as a live rig.  The only thing Pro Fools has over Sonar is a better score system and I am not even sure about that because I haven't touched Pro Fools in a few months but if they have a dedicated window and have the basics of Silibus then this is the only thing Pro Fools has over Sonar.
    Please God (Sonar, Roland Seth fix this problem). 
     
    Finally did I mention that Pro Fools released version 8 of Pro Fools with so many bugs in it it was not even guaranteed to work on Vista.  It took me a month to fix and make my woman's version work on Vista and finally it was only after a patch was released. 
     
    Pro Fools and Avid are trying to corner the market and will fail gloriously as I have said nobody in their right mind will pay for this system and as I have said and found out all their new hardware units and boxes are made of plastic.  Plastic=hot melting sticky death (he he).
     
    Finally yorolpal do you mean the vocals on that particular song or all the songs.  If it is just that song I recorded that 9 years ago and I didn't know **** from clay.  It was recorded on a one of those Tascam USB control surface ( Ihave forgoton what it was called, it was blue and USB 1) and everything rolled into one (one of the fist of it's kind) at 16 bit.  I don't even have the original mix, that was re-mastered and I had to clean up the track of clicks using the audio restore plugin.  Also as I say I had no idea at the time in terms of the recording arts.  So please forgive my inexperience, I have more tunes like that, that I am remastering at the moment.  I will post them soon and more than likely on my new website.  Am waiting on a new piece of kit the A2 Ebony TL Audio compressor with digital out. 
     
    Does anyone have any opinions on this compressor?  I would like to know what people think? as I am going to offer some limited mastering services and I don't want to be laughed at like the guy who was offering mastering at $20 per song.  Although this guy was mastering in the box and had thought over compression was a good thing.
     
    Die Pro Fools Die!!!!
    Happy Birthday John Lennon for Yesterday (We need this man more than ever!)
     
    “In Search Of The Lost Digital Chord”
    Down with the false Gods. (Audio Schools)
    Viva la Revolution
    Sonar Forever, Pro Tools Never
    Ben B.C.T (Bachelor of Creative Technology)
    http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics
     
    #26
    RogerS
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/09 22:07:08 (permalink)
    Thanks for the informative post, UnderTow.

    PE 8.5.3,  Windows 7 Pro 64-bit,  i7 920,  GA-EX58-UD4P,  6gb Corsair DDR3,  2 x Barracuda 500gb,  HIS Radeon GS-4670 Fanless 1gb DDR3, dual 24" monitors,  Axiom 61,  Korg Triton Pro,  Focusrite Saffire Pro 40,  VG-99,  Yamaha MSP5,  Fostex PM0.5       
    #27
    yorolpal
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/09 22:48:47 (permalink)
    Well CornBeef ol pal, these here forums is for cussin and discussin.  So folks are liable to agree on this and disagree on that any ol time of the day or night...it's just the nature of the beast.  No truce needs to be called.  You call em as you see em.  And I'll do the same.  Meant what I said about "I Can't Stand Up"...just dandy.  Rock on, ol pal.  Keep stretchin the boundaries.

    http://www.myspace.com/doghouserileyhisownself

    Where you come from is gone...where you thought you were goin to weren't never there...and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it.

    Sonar X3E Expanded Producer Edition 64 bit running on a Studio Cat Pro System Win 7 64bit 2.8ghz Core i7 with 12 gigs ram. MOTU Audio Express.
    #28
    yayalala22
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/23 05:52:15 (permalink)
    Do not fear a person's title or area of responsibility. Remember, you are both people. Leaders you can not hinder the decision-making superiority. Earn respect by the sale or Buy WOW Gold discussion on personal and business goals, not just your product or service. An entrepreneurial leader takes the WOW Gold and knowledge of other team members into account. Curious and open to WOW Gold sale' opinions is a sign of respect. It comforts the people and assured them that they make a positive contribution. Never speak negatively about your RuneScape Gold Power Level experiences, you'll just throw questions about your ability to do the job.
    #29
    Zo
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    Re:So who is moving to Protools HD Native ? 2010/10/24 19:02:35 (permalink)
    Even if it was free , i will stay under sonar !!

    Really really serious here !!!
    #30
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