Sidroe
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[Solved] 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"
HOLY CRAP!! I ran the Command Center Early Update for 12 and it got as far as extracting files and hung!! Stopped the update, which btw had to be done with Task Manager!!! I went to the Program Data folder and found the download for the update and tried using that and it still hangs at extracting files!!!! I fired up Splat and it still shows as .11 so I am hoping there was no damage done. C'mon Bakers!! I have never had so many issues with Cakewalk before. And this behavior of leaving us dead in the water with not even so much as an explanation is unacceptable!!! I have been a staunch supporter of this program since Pro Audio 9!!! This is the first time I have been made to feel cheated and shortchanged for sinking the investment and the time I spend tooting the horn for Cakewalk when everyone around me tries to make me change to Logic, or Studio One, or Pro Fools!! At least someone needs to make a definitive statement of what's going on and how long will the fix be down the road. DO NOT TAKE THE CHANCE ON .12 UPDATE!!! IT'S NOT WORKING FOR ME AND THE ODDS ARE IT WON'T WORK FOR YOU!!!!
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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DeeringAmps
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 09:31:14
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I got it to download and install ok, BUT THEN; Problems doing "save as" SONAR 'hung" Issue loading Trilian and EZD2 SONAR crashed Fault Reporter "hung" Keyboard shortcuts a mess It was a nightmare here on my Win7x86 office rig; no way I'll install that turd on my Cat WTF Cakewalk? I'm happily running "11" again. T
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM  RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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fireberd
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 09:31:33
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No problem with the 2016.12 version here.
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
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Anderton
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 09:42:04
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It's the Early Access version. As the post announcing it says: If you encounter any critical issues prior to official public release, post them to the Problem Reports Forum. Please include SONAR 2016.12 in the post title, and refrain from including issues not related to SONAR 2016.12 as they may get missed. We’ll do our best to lock posts as we confirm the reports. In that spirit, I must say it's working here, except I found a problem with splitting and moving clips if "slide over to make room" is checked, and sent a report to Cakewalk. There are quite a few days left in December.
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BobF
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 09:44:39
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fireberd No problem with the 2016.12 version here.
Same here ... Win8.1 ...
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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Sidroe
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 09:52:03
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I love you, Craig, but with all due respect there may be more days til Sept. is over but when my deadline to have a project done is Tuesday of next week and I'm dead in the water maybe I can have Noel and the guys explain it to my clients why the deadline is missed!!!
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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Sidroe
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 09:52:54
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That last post was figuratively speaking!!!
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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Anderton
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 09:55:54
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Sidroe I love you, Craig, but with all due respect there may be more days til Sept. is over but when my deadline to have a project done is Tuesday of next week and I'm dead in the water maybe I can have Noel and the guys explain it to my clients why the deadline is missed!!!
Are you saying you can't roll back or do a System Restore?
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vanceen
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 10:14:19
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2016.12 extracted and installed fine here. Not seeing any problems besides occasional crashes upon opening certain projects.
SONAR Platinum Windows 10 ASUS X99E WE Core i7 5960X 32 GB Corsair DDR4 2133 C13 Fireface UFX USB driver 1.098 GeForce GTX 950
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Anderton
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 10:22:49
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☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2016/12/17 10:24:30
For what it's worth, I NEVER use any beta or pre-release software of any kind, from any company, on my main desktop computer that I use for getting actual work done. I do any testing on my laptop, which has a 500 GB drive and no external drives, so it's easy to image periodically just in case there's some serious issue. With the laptop, I create a system restore point before installing anything. So far (knock on silicon) I've never needed to restore from an image, just roll back to a system restore point.
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chuckebaby
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 10:28:32
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Anderton For what it's worth, I NEVER use any beta or pre-release software of any kind, from any company, on my main desktop computer that I use for getting actual work done.
This right here ^^^^ is priceless advise. When I know I have a project due or something important, I have waited on the Early releases. Why take the chance ? With all this said, Early release 2016.12 is running like a charm here (Windows 8.1 X64) and I have kicked the snot out of it 8 hrs a day since its release. Is it possible your download got corrupt ? I would remove the Installer from Program Data / CCC /Downloads folder and try to re download. On the flip side, If you were being serious and have genuine work that needs to be done.. I would roll back and finish it and avoid experimenting / downloading ER's unless you have some free time. Roll back. That's why the roll back feature was created. Good luck
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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Cactus Music
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 10:35:47
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I watch this forum before I update. That's why I never bought X1 or X2. I see that this rolling update system will always have this issue. We are headed for a rollercoaster ride of good and bad releases. It used to take a year to find out what the good and bad were going to be. I'm going to Stay in October untill this blows over. I usually wait a few releases anyhow.
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pwalpwal
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 11:04:38
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chuckebaby
Anderton For what it's worth, I NEVER use any beta or pre-release software of any kind, from any company, on my main desktop computer that I use for getting actual work done.
This right here ^^^^ is priceless advise.
agreed 100% but it does leave us users in a slightly weird place - like, early access 11 came out literally 1 day before the full release - and look at all the showstopper issues with 11 proper release - what are we to do? how many versions to wait? i wonder if "monthly" is a bit too quick for updates, nevermind learning any new stuff, but for proper QA before release? there's a school of thought that says agile-developed software never leaves beta...
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BobF
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 11:06:59
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As has been said many times, there is no requirement to immediately update as soon as an update becomes available.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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pwalpwal
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 11:11:45
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BobF As has been said many times, there is no requirement to immediately update as soon as an update becomes available.
of course, but then why bother with monthly updates? why no just stick to the "old fashioned" way of a major release followed by a couple of point release updates?
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BobF
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 12:10:57
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pwalpwal
BobF As has been said many times, there is no requirement to immediately update as soon as an update becomes available.
of course, but then why bother with monthly updates? why no just stick to the "old fashioned" way of a major release followed by a couple of point release updates?
User choice and flexibility? Aren't you a Studio One user?
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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bitflipper
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 12:16:56
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☄ Helpfulby Vastman 2016/12/17 19:32:27
Suggestion for CW: don't get hung up on monthly releases. It's soup when it's soup. Suggestion for SONAR users: stop the "{month_name} is almost over! Where's the update?!?!?" threads. It's soup when it's soup.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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chuckebaby
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 12:40:19
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pwalpwal
chuckebaby
Anderton For what it's worth, I NEVER use any beta or pre-release software of any kind, from any company, on my main desktop computer that I use for getting actual work done.
This right here ^^^^ is priceless advise.
agreed 100% but it does leave us users in a slightly weird place - like, early access 11 came out literally 1 day before the full release - and look at all the showstopper issues with 11 proper release - what are we to do? how many versions to wait? i wonder if "monthly" is a bit too quick for updates, nevermind learning any new stuff, but for proper QA before release? there's a school of thought that says agile-developed software never leaves beta...
In my opinion its kind of a double edged sword. Yes we get newest updates every single month, but when you have a stable version, changing every month can be for some.. a recipe for problems. So im kind of in the middle to be honest. I like the rolling updates myself, however if I were having a lot of problems, I wouldn't  . But there always is the roll back feature. It is really hard to compare an annual release to a monthly one, because with an annual, I agree, it should be tight as nuts+bolts. Monthly, that's always going to be difficult. but as I said, theres a perc with monthly. new features and new fixes. But you know Pwal, its easy for me to say because ive been running smooth almost all year. I didn't even have any of the Windows 10 issues people were having. (still on Windows 8.1)
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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Anderton
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 13:02:15
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As to monthly vs. yearly, think of how many months it took with X3 to nail down all the bugs that were introduced upon its release...I think it took 4-5 months? And some of the fixes caused issues that were dealt with in later updates. With the monthly releases, the good news is that bugs are fixed much sooner. The bad news it that they're also introduced much sooner. There doesn't seem to be a perfect model for software releases. That said, like Chuck I have not had the stability issues others report, and I'm using Windows 10. Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe it's because I'm really attentive to the computer environment.
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dwardzala
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 13:02:17
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☄ Helpfulby coolbass 2016/12/17 13:32:12
I have no issue with the monthly updates and the early access program. You can update when a new feature that you want to use comes out or a particular bug that is affecting your workflow is squashed. You can wait a few days/weeks/months to update or do it on day one. Users should be mindful that early access = OPEN BETA/QA. If you have a project that has a deadline or something critical, you probably shouldn't update when the early access comes out (and possibly even when the monthly release comes out.) The user is in control here, and that's the best part.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
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Sidroe
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 13:40:56
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You may have missed the post I wrote about speaking figuratively!! I do have the projects that are on a deadline on a backup laptop!!!! I would NEVER take a chance on screwing around with an update on a computer that is crippled in the middle of a project. I was just making an example for the guy that does not have the luxury of 2 or 3 machines or a reliable backup image. Also, the restore points do not help the problems we have been having now for almost 2 weeks!!
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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Sidroe
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 14:09:29
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Took another whack at the Early Access and the download and installation went well!! Tried a project with CA2A in it and all seems well so far. I did reset and rescan all VSTs because I did get the prompt in the bottom right corner about the VSTs not being recognized. Will keep you posted. This is all on my old desktop, not my work computer in the studio.
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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azslow3
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 14:12:02
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☄ Helpfulby Vastman 2016/12/17 19:36:47
Sidroe YI was just making an example for the guy that does not have the luxury of 2 or 3 machines or a reliable backup image.
Computer to run Sonar - >>$500 Something around it (instruments, mics, guitars, interfaces, keyboars) - >>$100 ( for someone with real projects >>$1000) Sonar itself - >>$100 Backup disk - < $100 Backup software - < $100, starting from $0 "Test" computer to run Sonar - $300 Also no one force users install Alpha versions. The guy you have mentioned tries to save money on wrong thing, and he want test the latest alpha during important project. He should blame the mirror
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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Sidroe
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 15:09:27
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At any rate, I have tested the Early Access 12, once it downloaded, with CA2A and Rapture Session on some projects and they seem to be working well right now. No crashes, did have some crackling but turned out I had a few more prochannel FX modules inserted than the current buffer rate would take. Up with the buffer and it seemed to be alright for now.
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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dwardzala
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 15:15:27
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Glad it's sorted for you.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
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scook
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Re: [Solved] ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 15:16:14
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please mark as solved thanks
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RSMCGUITAR
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 17:00:36
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Ummm.... Where are these $500 computers and $100 sonar coming from. To assume everyone can afford two machines is stupid. It should also not be necessary
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chuckebaby
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 17:20:14
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☄ Helpfulby coolbass 2016/12/17 17:56:56
Sidroe Took another whack at the Early Access and the download and installation went well!!
So all this "Cakewalk leaving us dead in the water" for nothing ? of course im just figuratively speaking but rather than come to the forum and rant, why not try being patient and asking some questions first ? Because no matter what you say later in your thread (unless you edit your first post) , People will open this thread and the first comment they read is... ALERT !!!! Sidroe""DO NOT TAKE THE CHANCE ON .12 UPDATE!!! IT'S NOT WORKING FOR ME AND THE ODDS ARE IT WON'T WORK FOR YOU!!!!"" Isn't that a wee bit unfair ? Sometimes a little patients and asking questions from this great group of people here can really be productive. VS having a freak out. I was willing to offer up a solution. May not have been candy coated but I think I may have nailed your issue. Here's what im guessing..as I estimated in my first comment. your download was corrupted and that's why it wouldn't install. Us musicians are a strange breed of people. I have my own faults as well. Im ignorant, blunt and too honest sometimes. Hope your making good music now. (being serious and sincere)
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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Sidroe
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 18:10:11
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Point well taken, Chuck! I apologize if I came off as abrasive but this silent treatment from the Baker's is really starting to rub many of us the wrong way. BTW, I have not been just sitting and waiting for the fix. I am constantly making music. It is my life and business. How I make my living and that is why this current situation with the problems is bothersome to me. Just the same I hope you accept my apology!
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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Fabio Rubato
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Re: ALERT!!! 2016.12 Update hangs on "extracting files"!!!!!!
2016/12/17 19:18:49
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☄ Helpfulby RSMCGUITAR 2016/12/17 19:44:44
I've seen 'sensational' headlines on this forum over the years capture member's attention. It appears that those headlines with perhaps more negative or emotionally charged words gets quick results - sometimes attracting similarly charged responses. I have posted 'tame' ones on many of an occasion only to receive at times, little response. Usually such evocative headlines is driven by frustration born out of many years of dealing with issues getting in the way of making music. This is heightened if one has pressing/important and/or client work. Philosophically, it is the nature of working with software as it's never going to a perfect...but yes, we are all human and subject to those 'little things' that send us a little over the edge at times. At the moment, I agree with Sidroe that some communication from the Bakers would be helpful re these recent issues, which also doesn't appear to affect everyone. It's a bit confusing to hear that a fix is being addressed and then an EA is released, which I don't think from what I've seen, specifically states a fix for the 'plt stops working' issue? I may have missed it, but the point is, communication goes a long way to help people's tolerance in such matters.
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