[Solved] Bass Question (Ibanez CTB3) - The J and P type pickups was the "answer"

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mettelus
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2015/11/06 18:17:56 (permalink)

[Solved] Bass Question (Ibanez CTB3) - The J and P type pickups was the "answer"

I have an Ibanez "CT Series" bass that I got from a friend in 1997. I just tore it apart an refurbished it, but noticed a couple issues and have a couple questions for the bassists out there. This is a 4-string active pickup bass, which I did play for a bit when I first got it but I am not into active pickups (and especially batteries).
  1. String guage? - I saw .035 - .095 often when searching, is this the standard set for a bass?
  2. Tuners - Two tuners are missing the screws from the peg key! At first I thought this funny, but after cleaning it up I wanted to see if not tightening them would affect tuning and because I cleaned everything they simply fall off now (sad comedy for sure). Not sure if finding those screws is worth the effort, as it seems the same tuners are carried by StewMac for $14 a piece.
  3. Active vs Passive - This is the "real" question for me, as I am not into active pickups, and assumed that was common for basses to boost the signal but have another friend with a passive bass that sounded just fine to me. The fact that the back cover has 6 screws is of concern to me, since I am not sure how long a battery can be left in place without issues if unplayed.
   At this point I am debating if a passive bass would be more suited to me, but since I already have this I may just deal with it. With a guitar, active pickups will typically give a harder attack, but lack in sustain, but I am not sure if active is preferred on a bass or not?
post edited by mettelus - 2015/11/17 14:30:04

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    tlw
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    Re: Bass Question 2015/11/06 19:00:10 (permalink)
    .045-.105 are pretty common bass string gauges (factory standard on Fenders), though like guitar strings it's a matter of personal preference really.

    Tuners, if you can find the screws, might as well fit them :-)

    Active pickups have the advantage of resisting radio frequency interference and mains-introduced hum well, without the loss of treble you get with humbuckers. They often do have a higher output than passive pickups, some amps have a second jnput with less gain for active pickups. The electronics are usually fully active as well, so can boost as well as cut frequencies and an active bass and treble eq can produce a wider range of tones than passive treble cut only pots.. On the downside they can hiss a bit, though that can usually be dealt with by reducing the treble at the amp. 50 or 60 Hz mains hum, especially the first octave harmonic at 100/120Hz from single coils is harder to eq out because it sits right in the bass's range.

    Really the active/passive denate is a matter of preference as much as anything unless buzz is a big problem. Passive gives a more traditional kind of tone, active is often thought good for slap and pop styles, metal or even jazz because the active pre-amp has a greater tonal range. The output isn't necessarily any higher than passive pickups.

    The batteries usually last a long time - days of use, or at least they do in my Washburn. Though I'll admit to playing my Fender Precision Cabronita with a passive mini-humbucker far more.

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Bass Question 2015/11/07 10:58:57 (permalink)
    As above 45- 105, I use 45 - 110 because I sometimes drop my E to D... 
     
    I put a set of Dimarzio passives into my Yamaha bass made a huge differance, sorry I don't have the model on hand but they were a set or J/P from Musicians Freind for around $100. 
    My friend has the fancy version of my YAmaha with the active pups and mine sounds better overall. He gets to much string noise and it's bad for recording. I think of active as good for live but not so good in the studio..just my experiance. 
     
    Replace the machine heads. Try Guitar Fetish for parts, they often have sales,,, they also sell Pups. I just bought a P bass PU from them for $30 and will install in this old Hondo Bass I have. Will report back if it gets a thumbs up. I put their GF Pups in my G&L ( soap bar humbuckers) and they have been great,,, I had to dunk them in wax however, so not top shelf but good sound..
     
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    post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/11/07 11:14:57

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    drewfx1
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    Re: Bass Question 2015/11/07 12:16:00 (permalink)
    As noted 45-105 is sort of the "standard" gauge, but this depends on preference and the type of strings used - roundwound vs. flatwound vs. tapewound gauges are all a bit different.
     
    What are the PU's? Many "active" basses are really just standard passive PU's fed into an on board preamp which can be bypassed or removed, though this will often require different valued pots for volume/blend.
     
    If you're talking about the little machine head screws on the back of the headstock, they are only there to prevent the tuners from turning and should not be over tightened or they will easily strip. They only need to be tight enough not to fall out.

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    mettelus
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    Re: Bass Question 2015/11/08 02:39:23 (permalink)
    The pickups in this guy are XJ2 on the bridge and XP2 on the neck (no sure who made them though). I am a diehard fan of DiMarzio's passive pickups and have a D-Activator set in my guitar. For now, I will see how these go and if I will take to playing it, but the actives are definitely unforgiving for how hard the strings are fretted (can actually pick up the metallic hit unless the treble/mid is lowered a lot). It is also a different style to play, so only been at it for a few hours.
     
    I had an interesting day here, since I first went searching for screws (the ones which hold the worm gear to the key). Of course they are too fine a thread for a hardware store to carry, but it occurred to me on the way home that there is no need to ever disassemble them. I ended up epoxying all 4 using the screws to set them as they cured (2 at a time), and left the screws in the bottom two tuners when done.
     
    While at Lowes the guy mentioned a local shop and since I was too lazy to make a 40 mile trip to Guitar Center for strings I gave him a call. I told him I hadn't set the bridge yet because I needed strings and he said to just bring the bass. Turns out this guy is a luthier, and makes acoustic guitars to custom specs from scratch. He had one he just bought back from the widow of a guy he sold it to 8 years ago. $2000 dreadnaught, but the craftsmanship on his stuff was stellar. Quite a character, and while talking to him he just strung the bass and set the bridge by ear. Then he shocked me when I asked him how much I owed him, and he just charged me for the stings.
     
    I ended up lowering the bridge as much as possible after I got home, and been messing with it for technique mostly, but have a ways to go. The frets are low profile, so the technique of fretting it pretty much on the fret without creating the metallic hit is rather challenging. My left pinky isn't as strong as I thought is was either!
    post edited by mettelus - 2015/11/08 02:50:59

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    tlw
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    Re: Bass Question 2015/11/08 17:41:20 (permalink)
    If you're having trouble with inconsistent metallic tones coming off the frets try a set of flatwounds. I have real trouble finger-picking bass because once in a while I'll catch a string with a nail and get a really noticeable loud and bright overtone. Flatwounds really helped with the problem. You might need lighter strings though because flatwounds are less "slinky" than roundwounds because the wrap makes them stiffer.

    Nylon wraps are even less bright than flatwound though they're more expensive. Can really tame a bright tonally inconsistent instrument though. Or give a better more upright bass tone if that's what the style requires.

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    tagruvto
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    Re: Bass Question 2015/11/08 20:15:27 (permalink)
    Active and passive pickups are both commonly used with bass guitars.  In my experience, it really depends on the styles of music you will be playing and the desired tone you wish to achieve.  Please note:  the choice of strings is very important when sculpting the tone of your bass.
     
    Examples:  for an old school Motown sound I would suggest passive pickups and probably flatwounds, although old roundwounds will usually work just fine too.
    For a modern slap tone, like Marcus Miller, it's generally active pickups and roundwounds. 
    The above examples are generalizations because with good gear and a versatile preamp, you can pretty much get that "Active" tone with passive pickups.
     
     

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    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Bass Question 2015/11/09 12:39:42 (permalink)
    I'm not a fan of Bartolini or EMG.
    I prefer passive pickups... as they tend to have more nuance when digging-in.
    Passive pickups with good preamp is a great combination.  Lots of tone shaping options
     
    Nordstrand makes great bass pickups.
    Lots of options to customize/tailor your sound.
     
    Thinner strings have more nuance... but thicker strings have more fundamental.
    105 to 45 works well on most 4-string basses.
     
    If the original tuners are missing screws, I'd replace them.
    Nothing worse than recording an instrument that constantly goes out of tune...
    post edited by Jim Roseberry - 2015/11/09 12:50:11

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    rebel007
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    Re: Bass Question 2015/11/09 21:34:53 (permalink)
    I'm with Jim, not a big fan of active PU's, seems to be more nuance, and greater range of dynamics, with the passives. I've always found I've had to spend valuable time between songs in the set, to fine tune the tone and volume with actives, in order to get a workable sound that mixes well with the rest of the band.
    Easier to use a pedal or two, a good amp, and you get more tone shaping options. Each to their own though, and I'm sure there are times when an active PU is the perfect choice for 'that' sound.

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    mettelus
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    Re: Bass Question (Ibanez CTB3) 2015/11/09 23:38:35 (permalink)
    Thanks all for the responses. I did some digging on this, and seems it is an "Ibanez CTB3" which was only made in 1992. What is odd is that Ibanez' site doesn't have any info on models prior to 2000 that I can find. The knobs do not fit any of the ones shown in this "more generic" manual. My bass has 4 knobs in a diamond configuration, top is
     volume, bottom is bass boost/cut, rear is mid/treble boost/cut, and the front seems to be "balancer" but seems wired backwards from that manual (more treble fully clockwise, like it is all bridge). Anyone know what that knob really is?
     
    I have gotten to mess with it for a couple days now, and the guy put round wounds on it. I wish I had waited before that, but the treble cut does get rid off much of the "zing" and technique does wonders unto itself. Where I get bit is with hammer-ons, but found that plucking a note just prior to fretting gets rid of the buzz pretty much completely but with hammer-ons that isn't doable (yet). Seems the E string is the worst culprit for this though.
     
    For now, this will be fine. My Carvin amp (2x12) seems to be fine with it on the low input jack, and I am not a volume fiend in general. I seem to have taken to using my thumb half the time to fret the E string which works pretty well for certain positions, but is taking some use to getting used to strings being so far apart (left pinky is getting a real workout from this thing). Overall I can see the advantage of the active pickups for tailoring the signal before the amp since the boost/cut circuits are pretty aggressive and the treble cut is almost a necessity with round wounds on this.

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    michaelhanson
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    Re: Bass Question (Ibanez CTB3) 2015/11/10 16:32:26 (permalink)
    This is all I have ever needed.  Passive.  45-105 Ernie Balls.  LaBella Flats sound awesome as well.
    Ampeg.  
     
    Done.  
     

     
     

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    mettelus
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    Re: Bass Question (Ibanez CTB3) 2015/11/12 21:43:25 (permalink)
    I seem to have the "bastard child" of the bass realm. No detailed wiring info exists and Ibanez' query page has an internal scripting error, although I just found another that seems to work (will see). The fact a company doesn't even op-test its own query form is just ludicrous (but they might be happy they are getting no emails ).
     
    In the meantime, I shot an after-hours email to DiMarzio apologizing for asking them and got a reply in 30 minutes!! They said they didn't have specific info on that model either, but shot me a generic wiring diagram from Ibanez for 94-96 which looks like it might be it (but no details of the circuit card itself).
     
    A company that goes "above and beyond" to this extent is an absolute keeper - DiMarzio, Focusrite, Carvin have all been this way for me. Semi-rant, but Ibanez is slip-sliding into the "well of shame."
     
    Back to topic, the Ibanez' diagram labels those knobs as volume (top), balancer (front), middle EQ (bottom), and treble EQ (back) although there is definitely cross-over effects at play - that "middle" knob puts a hefty 6dB on the bass signal. There is a detent on the middle/treble knobs which seems to allude to "unity" with a boost/cut on either side. I guess the frequency shift on the balancer makes sense with the pickups being so far apart, but still seems there is something else going on in that circuit board.
     
    Not jacked this into a DAW yet, but I probably should have just started there anyway.

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    drewfx1
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    Re: Bass Question (Ibanez CTB3) 2015/11/13 13:37:43 (permalink)
    This is a catalog page from 1992, which looks like the only year it was made:
     

     
    Some questions:
     
    Are all the controls mounted on a single board or just the EQ?
     
    What exactly are you trying to achieve?
     
    How does the bass sound unplugged? If it sounds "challenged" unplugged, I wouldn't recommend spending much money upgrading it. With new (good) active electronics it will likely cost a couple hundred bucks for PU's (which can be active or passive) and a preamp. With new passive PU's and passive tone controls it could be a hundred dollars or so, though you can generally find perfectly nice PU's on ebay much cheaper, particularly for bass and especially if you're patient. I've bought brand new and/or like new PU's for like 30% of retail (and I'm saying 30%, not 30% off) on more than one occasion.
     
    There's nothing wrong with or superior about either active or passive and there are both good and bad implementations of each. It's a "there's more than one right answer" kind of thing. All electric instruments are ultimately active, so it's just a matter of where the preamp/buffering/EQ is done - it can be done in the PU's and/or the on-board EQ as well as at the amp or direct input.
    post edited by drewfx1 - 2015/11/13 13:48:44

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    batsbrew
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    Re: Bass Question (Ibanez CTB3) 2015/11/13 14:44:46 (permalink)
    if those are J-bass retrofits,
    i'd suggest these:
     

    J-45's
    http://www.wildepickups.com/Bass_Pickups.html

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    mettelus
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    Re: Bass Question (Ibanez CTB3) 2015/11/13 14:55:27 (permalink)
    Thanks Drew, the CTB3BN is the model. For me this is my first experience with anything active, so I was more trying to make sure the controls were doing what I thought they did. It seems that they do, but the active part of it was throwing me at first.
     
    I checked with SPAN last night and the bass EQ is a straight-up +/- 6 dB boost cut, which is useful since the signal is uniform in that region. The treble EQ also seems to be a +/- 6 dB but that region is not uniform so this wildly exacerbates harmonics - this part caught me off guard since the discrete harmonics thrown in that region rival my guitar. The treble EQ swung fully pulls harmonics from the floor (totally hidden) to well over the bass component. I can see its use for pre-processing signals prior to hitting an amp since it will mask a lot of improper technique. I honestly wasn't expecting a "big fat string" to throw such wild harmonics even on an open string thumb-plucked.
     
    Unplugged it sounds fine, and a lot of the fretting (I tend to fret hard) doesn't get to the amp with the treble EQ at unity or less. I tend to leave the amp at lower volumes so was actually hearing my fingers over the amp previously, but jacked the amp up last night and the fret hits do not come through. I am slowly creeping the treble EQ up as I go since it is a good litmus test for getting proper technique down. Through the amp it does well, so I think a major portion is getting more familiar with it. I want to get some recording done with it this weekend, but overall I think there is nothing wrong or bad with it... just the player is a bit clueless so fumbling around .
     
    The upside to this whole venture is that it builds up hand strength big time, and with strength comes speed, so this is actually rather interesting for its "guitar application" as well.
     
     

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    mettelus
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    Re: Bass Question (Ibanez CTB3) 2015/11/17 14:18:21 (permalink)
    I found the missing piece of the "puzzle"... Ibanez got back to me, and they did dredge up the diagrams (still no board details) for the CTB5, which they said was identical electronics. I got the rug yanked out from under me, since I had the balancer and treble pots confused. The treble pot is very slight, which led me to believe it was the balancer, but the balancer knob is wired correctly... the dull (very bassy) pickup is the bridge (J-type), and the screaming hot harmonic one if the neck (P-type). So, I went digging for info on these...
     
    I found a set on Seymour-Duncan's web site which is probably very close to the set in this bass. I could search specifically by "active" and see the J/P side-by-side. What I did not realize is that the J-types are bass-heavy, and the P-types are more treble-heavy. Whatever is on that board just makes the P-type even more pronounced (so much so that the P-type full on cannot be tamed by the treble pot!). This was counter-intuitive for me, since the heavy harmonic puller is at the bridge on a guitar. Even on mine those two pickups are so close in performance that harmonics will naturally be more pronounced at the bridge, but on this bass the difference in the pickup designs is the complete opposite of expectation.
     
    I definitely learned something from refurbishing that bass! It seems that P-type is hard-wired even hotter on the board which makes it very sensitive to noise, feedback, string-zings, etc., so I am having a hard time seeing a use for that guy full-on at the moment, but a smidge of it is definitely needed for slap bass styles.
     
     

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