[Solved] Disable Automatic MIDI Messages?

Is there a way to disable automatic MIDI messages like patch changes and CCs in Sonar?
I've been seeing this behavior with some soft synths:
1. Import a MIDI track with controller data before the first note.
2. In the Event Viewer, remove everything from the track that isn't a note (all CCs, etc).
3. Bounce to clips. Do I need to apply trimming?
4. Play the track, some of the controls are still sent even though they're not in the event list.
When you play the track back all the performance controllers seem to have been eliminated but some of the setup ones appear to be sticky (in some cases). I was working with an imported MIDI clip a couple days ago and adjusting the distortion level in a soft synth, I'd set the distortion level when the part was playing but as soon as the transport was stopped then restarted, the control was zeroed out by a MIDI message that wasn't visible in the Event Viewer. I recreated the MIDI clip on a new MIDI track and when played, the new MIDI track did not zero out the distortion level when restarting the transport. I've seen similar issues with patch changes at times. When it happens, the only solution seems to be to recreate the track from scratch.
Is it possible to get at the stuff Sonar sends automatically or remembers from the original clip and turn it off?
Maybe a CAL script?
Any help would be appreciated, thanks!
 
Summary:
When importing or reading a GM file and you have the GM setup block enabled (it's enabled by default) some of the general midi CCs are mapped to the MIDI channel controls (fader, panner, chorus, reverb, track, patch, etc) and removed from the event list. Additionally, the controls will be enabled. If you don't want to use them (if you're using soft synths), right click on the control and select Disable. Some synths map GM CCs to unexpected things. :)

Automatic is the wrong term. It is just playing back. A CC is a continuous controller that will control how a note is played. You can delete them with the Event List View. Filter out what ever you want to keep and delete whats left.
 
BTW A program change is not a CC its a program change. 

Try this: Insert the MIDI Event Filter plug-in in the MIDI track's FX bin, then check all the boxes notes. Report back on what happens.

Anderton
As a diagnostic procedure, will you please do as I suggested and report back. Also under View and Event Manager, make sure that everything is checked, including RPN, NRPN, and Sysex data.

Sorry for the delay, had to go to work.
Ok. Here is what I did.
1. New project.
2. Import the MIDI starting at measure 3. The MIDI file contains 16 tracks, it was the same file I used before.
3. Remove all the MIDI tracks except one.
4. In the Event View, remove everything that wasn't a note. Bounce to clips.
5. In the inspector, set the channel, bank, and patch to none. Zero out the reverb and chorus. Set the fader and pan pot to default and disable them.
6. Add an instance of Sylenth to the project. Init patch, SQ wave, 4 voices. Turn on the distortion.
7. Point the MIDI track at the Sylenth.
8. Play the track while adjusting the distortion amount, leave it at a value greater than zero.
9. Stop the transport (I have On stop, rewind to Now turned on).
10. Play the track again, as soon as you hit play, the distortion amount knob in Sylenth resets to zero.
11. Insert the MIDI Event Filter on the track, hit None, then enable only Notes, same result.
12. Disable Notes in the MIDI Event Filter, nothing plays but the distortion is still zeroed out when the track is played.
The MIDI event filter had no effect whatsoever on the control getting reset.
The Sylenth Distortion Amount control responds to CC 93. Even copying and pasting part of the clip to another track will result in the control getting reset on play. If you create a new track and enter the notes in the Piano Roll or Staff views things behave as expected. If you save the project as MIDI Format 1 and reimport it, the original channel assignment is remembered even though it was set to none before saving, but after reimporting, the imported clip no longer seems to zero out the distortion.
I have a small project file that demonstrates the problem, if you have Sylenth you could probably reproduce it.
Thanks!

scook
Maybe "Zero Controllers When Play Stops" is enabled. This is a per-project setting found in Preferences > Project > MIDI

Yep, but that wern't it either. Unchecking both options (zero controllers, searchback), had no effect whatsoever.

swamptooth
Try disabling non-destructive midi editing in preferences when you make the changes. Send the midi file to me @ arvidpeterson at gmail dot com. And I'll check it with a hex inspector to see if anything is going on in its guts.

Nope, disabling non-destructive MIDI editing didn't help either. Files should be on their way.
Thanks

I'm pretty sure I know what's going on because the cc is assigned to 93.  I'll have a look in an hour or two and post back.  Thanks for the files - happy to help. 
 

Nope, it's the midi setup measure - because it's hiding the options as initial settings that are only able to be edited in the inspector.  This is useful in a lot of instances, but not in others as when using sylenth which uses GM mapped cc's as defaults.  The only two options are to insert ccvalues overriding the initial ccs in the midi file or to just set the ttsseq option.  The latter is the only foolproof way.  

swamptooth
Hey Tom, 
It's not a bug, it's a feature!
 
I looked at the files and yes, there are track header messages setting cc93 among other things in the midi file.  Sonar creates by default what Cakewalk calls a General Midi setup measure.  This essentially embeds all GM messages like patch changes and GM cc values that occur at the start of the track in the project and hides them in the event list.  You can see this because there are programs in the inspector and the chorus and reverb midi controls in several tracks are at a value other than 0 but they aren't in the event list.  
You can disable this by editing the ttsseq.ini  (found in C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Roaming\Cakewalk\SONAR X3 Producer) file by adding the following line in the [Options] header:
GeneralMidiSMFs=0.  
 
Here's the help page - TTSSEQ.INI
 
When you add that line, restart sonar, and open the midi file this is how your event list will appear:
Hope this helps!

 

I just finished testing this out, it worked. Turning off the General Midi setup measure, importing the file, then removing the controllers and playing the track no longer results in the distortion getting zeroed out. There still doesn't seem to be a way to make the setup measure data visible once it's hidden though. I crashed X3e twice doing it though. The second time I saved before hitting play. :)
Thanks!
Hey try this since you have my file:
1. New project
2. Import the midi
3. Event view -> track 5 (the first SQ Wave track)
4. Uncheck notes and delete all the controllers.
5. Bounce track 5 to clips
6. Insert a soft synth (Sylenth if you have it) and route track 5 to it.
7. Hit play.
Do you get a crash too?
 

press i and the track inspector pops up in the left side of sonar by default.  click the midi track you want and then click the track tab in the inspector.  scroll up and you'll see knobs for chorus and reverb.  i think i get where you're going with this.... open the sylenth ui and then move the chorus knob in the inspector.  dollars to doughnuts, the distortion knob in sylenth moves too...

just tried this in dimension pro, enabled midi learn on filter cutoff and moved the chorus knob... 
sure enough, dimension "learned" it.  
I don't know how to override these knobs...
if anyone else can help on that one much thanks!

Yes, the pan knob moves the osc1 level control in Sylenth.
You can disable the fader, pan, chorus, and reverb knobs by right clicking on them and selecting disable.

swamptooth
Ha!  That's what I love about sonar!  Learn something new every day!

Thinking about it, the GM setup block probably only maps things that are visible in the UI (fader, panner, patch, channel, etc). So it looks like everything is editable even if you have the setup block enabled, the data just moves to a different place.