Silhan
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[Solved] Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
I'm having a problem with X3e Producer and I'd appreciate it if someone could try to reproduce it for me on their system. When I try to load one of the large TVEC instruments from Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra into Kontakt from within Sonar X3e Producer, Kontakt crashes maybe half of the time. But if I do the same thing using Sonar X2a Producer instead, everything is fine. Here are the details of my setup: - Sonar X3e Producer
- Kontakt 5.3.1
- Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra
- TVEC 3.1, "Diamond Trumpets 6,4,2,1 Players" (but it also happens with other patches as well)
- Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 with 2.5.1 driver
- Windows 8.1
post edited by Silhan - 2014/06/21 15:16:41
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scook
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 02:08:42
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It might be helpful to provide more details about the PC such as RAM and HD info, SONAR config such as recording mode, sample rate and bit depth, also details about the crash itself. A crash usually throws up a dialog with information about the crash. The Windows Event log also may contain information which may be useful. Is this track the only one in the project?
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 11:12:11
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Kontakt displays a dialog box when it crashes saying that it created a log file. Unfortunatley the log file seems to be written in binary, so it's not much help to me. I've already submitted the log file to NI support, but I haven't heard back from them yet. My computer is a Toshiba Satellite laptop with a Core i7 CPU and 8 GB RAM. My Kontakt samples are stored an an external 1 TB hard drive connected via USB 3. Everything is 64-bit. The steps I take to reproduce the bug are: - Open Sonar X3e Producer with an empty project
- Drag Kontakt from the browser onto the track view to create a new simple instrument track.
- Load a large instrument (over 1 GB) into Kontakt. Lately that has been the KHS TVEC patches for me, but I've also experienced it with patches from other companies, like Rust 3 from Soundiron.
- As Kontakt tries to load the instrument, it will often crash before it has a chance to display the instrument in the GUI.
I don't think it has anything to do with recording mode, sample rate, or bit depth. Today I plan on trying to isolate the problem by varying different parameters to see if they have any effect.
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 11:25:08
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The error text reads:
Kontakt 5 has encountered a major problem and has been terminated.
A crashlog file has been created at the following location:
[path of NICRASH log file]
Please provide this crashlog to the Native Instruments technical support.
Thank you for your cooperation!
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lawp
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 11:29:46
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Is it a multi out instance of kontakt you're dragging? Or a multi out instrument you're loading?
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 11:31:32
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What happens if you load Kontakt into the synth rack, and select the insertion of regular audio tracks, rather than a simple instrument track?
I would just like to see a test of the load of that instrument into an instance of Kontakt, in and of itself.
Thanks,
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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lawp
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 11:35:45
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Prime suspect - simple instrument track
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 11:48:32
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lawp
Is it a multi out instance of kontakt you're dragging? Or a multi out instrument you're loading?
It happens with the 8 out, 16 out and 64 out instances of Kontakt. The instrument is not multi-out.
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Anderton
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 12:10:54
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Dooes Windows load any background programs? There's a common misconception that streaming from disk means you don't need much RAM, but Kontakt stores a significant amount of a note's attack so it can play back instantly while the hard drive seeks. If there are lots of individual samples for articulations and such, the needed memory can add up fast. Your saying that it crashes about half the time may mean there is something about your system that's "on the edge." I don't know if X3e loads more "stuff" into memory than X2; if you ran programs prior to opening Sonar, sometimes they don't release memory fully. If Sonar had a bug caused by loading large files, it would seem that it would happen every time. If Sonar can load files smaller than a certain size without errors, it would seem whatever the problem is relates to file size. When I bought a new music computer several years back, I mentioned that I use Kontakt a lot and the system integrator (PC Audio Labs) highly recommended 32GB of RAM. At the time I thought that was overkill, but it turned out they were right. I never have crashes any more from running out of memory. Finally, I've found NI's support very helpful in the past although it can take them a few days to respond. They really depend on lots of data, so for example try running Kontakt in standalone mode to see if that makes a difference. If it's fine, then open some more instruments. If you reach a point where you try to load so much stuff Kontakt crashes and you get the same error message, that would likely indicate a need for more memory. My understanding is that Windows isn't all that efficient in terms of managing memory, but that may just be something I recall from conversations with Mac-centric friends 
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 12:11:47
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robert_e_bone
What happens if you load Kontakt into the synth rack, and select the insertion of regular audio tracks, rather than a simple instrument track?
lawp
Prime suspect - simple instrument track
I tried switching from a simple instrument track to a MIDI track with the first stereo output on a separate audio track, but unfortunately the crashes still happen.
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 12:16:37
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robert_e_bone
I would just like to see a test of the load of that instrument into an instance of Kontakt, in and of itself.
The instrument loads without crashing in Kontakt standalone.
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 12:40:14
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Anderton
Your saying that it crashes about half the time may mean there is something about your system that's "on the edge." I don't know if X3e loads more "stuff" into memory than X2; if you ran programs prior to opening Sonar, sometimes they don't release memory fully. If Sonar had a bug caused by loading large files, it would seem that it would happen every time. If Sonar can load files smaller than a certain size without errors, it would seem whatever the problem is relates to file size.
I've opened up the Windows task manager to monitor memory usage. Windows indicates baseline memory usage of 2.9GB in use and 5.1 GB available. When I open X3 with a blank project, it uses 125 MB of memory. When I insert an instance of Kontakt, Sonar's memory usage goes up to 227 MB. If Kontakt crashes while loading this instrument, Sonar's memory usage tops out at 460 MB. But if I'm able to load the instrument without crashing, Sonar's memory usage get to 677 MB. This is consistent with running Kontakt in standalone mode. Before loading the instrument Kontakt uses 85 MB. After loading the instrument it uses 535 MB. In both cases, when the instrument loads successfully it takes up about 450 MB. But when it crashes in Sonar it uses only 233 MB. To me this indicates that Kontakt is having trouble loading the instrument in Sonar. I can see Kontakt's dialog indicating that it is loading the samples. It's after that dialog goes away, but before the instrument GUI is displayed, that the crash occurs.
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 12:45:48
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Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I'm trying out each of them and reporting back what happens.
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Anderton
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 12:55:44
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Please do let us know the results of what you find. Although you mention this as Kontakt-specific, perhaps those using MachFive or other samplers could benefit from whatever you find. Unfortunately (or actually, fortunately) I can't reproduce the problem here and can load anything Kontakt throws at Sonar so I can't be of much help.
One question remains: If you keep loading instruments into Kontakt until you do run out of memory, does it generate the same error message? NI might find that information helpful.
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scook
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 12:57:15
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Make sure to follow the instructions is the crash dialog. Send the crash log to NI Tech Support.
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lawp
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 12:59:30
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Is multi core enabled in kontakt?
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 13:34:00
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lawp
Is multi core enabled in kontakt?
Multicore is on in Sonar and off in Kontakt. Switching it doesn't seem to have an effect.
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 13:35:13
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scook
Make sure to follow the instructions is the crash dialog. Send the crash log to NI Tech Support.
I sent it to them about a week ago, but haven't heard back, so I decided to ask this forum instead to get some fresh ideas.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 13:38:40
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Thanks for the additional tests - I will scratch my noggin for a while and see if anything comes to mind.
Please list your computer specs - CPU type, memory, etc - you can look at my signature at the bottom of this post for an idea - ideally you will want to add your specs to your forum signature, so that folks can get an idea of what you are running with when they are trying to help you debug some weirdness. :)
I am encouraged that it loads into Kontakt in stand-alone mode, it's a good start.
By the way, Kontakt supports loading multiple instruments into a single instance of it, but I do not believe you can take advantage of that with simple instrument tracks. This doesn't pertain to your problem, but I thought I would suggest you consider using regular separate audio and midi tracks - particularly for synths like Kontakt.
Thanks,
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 13:48:33
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I think I might have identified the problem. It seems to be caused by either Kontakt or Sonar processing mouse events during the instrument load. Crashes are likely to occur when I load the instrument by double clicking or dragging with the mouse. But if I load the instrument by selecting it and pressing enter on the keyboard instead, everything is fine. I haven't been able to make it crash once out of about 30 tries when using the keyboard to load a Kontakt instrument patch. I also tried making Kontakt crash in X2a and in standalone mode by using the mouse, but it won't crash. The only times I can make it crash is when loading a Kontakt patch in in X3e using the mouse.
post edited by Silhan - 2014/06/21 14:04:33
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 13:52:08
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Anderton
One question remains: If you keep loading instruments into Kontakt until you do run out of memory, does it generate the same error message? NI might find that information helpful.
I successfully loaded multiple large instruments into a single instance of Kontakt in Sonar X3e by using the enter key instead of the mouse (see my previous post). I pushed Sonar's memory usage up to 3079 MB without any problems. At that point I was at only 73% memory usage in Windows but I gave up because it seemed stable enough.
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 14:06:46
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robert_e_bone
Please list your computer specs - CPU type, memory, etc - you can look at my signature at the bottom of this post for an idea - ideally you will want to add your specs to your forum signature, so that folks can get an idea of what you are running with when they are trying to help you debug some weirdness. :)
I just added them to my profile. Hopefully they will show up on this message.
Sonar Version: X3e Producer Edition x64 Audio Interface: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, 2.5.1 Driver Settings: 24-bit, Sample Rate 48 kHz, ASIO Buffer Size 192 samples Computer: Intel Core i7-3630QM@2.40GHz, 8 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 x64 Soft Synths: Kontakt 5, BFD 2, AAS Modeling Collection, Pianoteq 5, Addictive Keys Effects: Amplitube 3, Melda Creative Bundle, ARC 2, Melodyne Editor, Breverb 2 MIDI Controllers: Novation Impulse 61
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 14:17:18
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Thanks again for the help everyone. I don't know whether the problem is Sonar or Kontakt. I'll make sure both tech support teams get this info.
Sonar Version: X3e Producer Edition x64 Audio Interface: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, 2.5.1 Driver Settings: 24-bit, Sample Rate 48 kHz, ASIO Buffer Size 192 samples Computer: Intel Core i7-3630QM@2.40GHz, 8 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 x64 Soft Synths: Kontakt 5, BFD 2, AAS Modeling Collection, Pianoteq 5, Addictive Keys Effects: Amplitube 3, Melda Creative Bundle, ARC 2, Melodyne Editor, Breverb 2 MIDI Controllers: Novation Impulse 61
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John
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 14:19:47
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It sounds to me that you have identified the problem. I would add that you may wish to put your mouse on a USB 2 port if you have one.
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 14:29:13
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John
It sounds to me that you have identified the problem. I would add that you may wish to put your mouse on a USB 2 port if you have one.
Unfortunately it's not really a good option for me. My laptop has one 2.0 port and two 3.0 ports. My audio interface is going into the 2.0 port and my external hard drive (for samples and audio) is going into one of the 3.0 ports. I prefer to have each of these on a dedicated port. My keyboard, mouse, MIDI controller, and other peripherals are sharing the second 3.0 port via a powered, 7-port, 3.0 hub.
Sonar Version: X3e Producer Edition x64 Audio Interface: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, 2.5.1 Driver Settings: 24-bit, Sample Rate 48 kHz, ASIO Buffer Size 192 samples Computer: Intel Core i7-3630QM@2.40GHz, 8 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 x64 Soft Synths: Kontakt 5, BFD 2, AAS Modeling Collection, Pianoteq 5, Addictive Keys Effects: Amplitube 3, Melda Creative Bundle, ARC 2, Melodyne Editor, Breverb 2 MIDI Controllers: Novation Impulse 61
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John
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 14:37:29
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Silhan
John
It sounds to me that you have identified the problem. I would add that you may wish to put your mouse on a USB 2 port if you have one.
Unfortunately it's not really an option. My laptop has one 2.0 port and two 3.0 ports. My audio interface is going into the 2.0 port and my external hard drive (for samples and audio) is going into one of the 3.0 ports. My keyboard, mouse, MIDI controller, and other peripherals are sharing the second 3.0 port via a powered, 7-port, 3.0 hub.
Try to reinstall that hub. That means uninstalling it and reinstalling it. The audio interface wont work in the USB 3 port? If it will why not move it there and move the hub to the USB 2 port? You have been very cogent in your responses. At any rate I wish you luck!
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 15:06:44
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John
Try to reinstall that hub. That means uninstalling it and reinstalling it. The audio interface wont work in the USB 3 port? If it will why not move it there and move the hub to the USB 2 port?
I'll try switching them to see if it has any effect. My reasoning was that the 3.0 port would give me a higher bandwidth so that all of my 2.0 devices could run at full speed. The audio interface is only 2.0, so I don't expect it to benefit much from the 3.0 port. I suppose my keyboard, mouse, and MIDI controller could share the 2.0 port since I generally don't use them all at the same time. One thing I didn't mention before is that I have an external Wi-Fi adapter connected to the hub as well because my internal Wi-Fi adapter is flaky. But then again, I don't expect to use Wi-Fi at the same time that I'm using the MIDI controller so it may not be a problem.
Sonar Version: X3e Producer Edition x64 Audio Interface: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, 2.5.1 Driver Settings: 24-bit, Sample Rate 48 kHz, ASIO Buffer Size 192 samples Computer: Intel Core i7-3630QM@2.40GHz, 8 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 x64 Soft Synths: Kontakt 5, BFD 2, AAS Modeling Collection, Pianoteq 5, Addictive Keys Effects: Amplitube 3, Melda Creative Bundle, ARC 2, Melodyne Editor, Breverb 2 MIDI Controllers: Novation Impulse 61
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John
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 15:20:05
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Silhan
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/21 15:58:55
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John
Let us know how it goes.
I tried it but unfortunately it didn't make any difference.
Sonar Version: X3e Producer Edition x64 Audio Interface: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, 2.5.1 Driver Settings: 24-bit, Sample Rate 48 kHz, ASIO Buffer Size 192 samples Computer: Intel Core i7-3630QM@2.40GHz, 8 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 x64 Soft Synths: Kontakt 5, BFD 2, AAS Modeling Collection, Pianoteq 5, Addictive Keys Effects: Amplitube 3, Melda Creative Bundle, ARC 2, Melodyne Editor, Breverb 2 MIDI Controllers: Novation Impulse 61
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Splat 
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Re: Need help reproducing a bug (Kontakt crashing in X3e Producer)
2014/06/22 22:46:14
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Make sure you disable the external WiFi adapter in windows (right click it) when you are not using it or unplug it. I assume you have permanently disabled the internal WiFi (ideally in BIOS if there is such a setting otherwise disable the adapter in windows).
I guess you could try to work this out via a process of elimination by disconnecting devices one by one.
Couple of questions. Are you using any special mouse drivers or software you installed for it? And what antivirus are you using?
Cheers..
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