[Solved] Oversampling Not Working On Export

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AdamGrossmanLG
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2017/05/29 00:03:38 (permalink)

[Solved] Oversampling Not Working On Export

Hello,
 
I have oversampling on render and playback on some softsynths with the 2x button enabled.  Sounds great when I hit play, but when I export the audio as files, its as if oversampling is disabled.  Some of my synths sound very wooly.
 
Is there something I need to do?

Thank You!
#1

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/29 13:39:08 (permalink)
    It's more likely that something other than oversampling is at play here, but you can test that hypothesis and probably learn something the process, or at least make some interesting observations that'll inspire further investigation.
     
    The first challenge is objectively demonstrating what oversampling actually does. You do that by intentionally creating the one (and only) problem that oversampling solves, namely aliasing, and measure it so that you can see oversampling at work. To then determine if SONAR is correctly oversampling on export, compare a spectral analysis of that test file with and without the 2x oversampling enabled.
     
    This isn't as complicated as it sounds. SPAN will clearly show aliasing with a test tone (but not with music) as spikes that are not multiples of the tone's frequency.
     
    With some experimentation, I predict you will find that a) aliasing is not as common as you might think, and b) the presumed benefits of oversampling are often greatly overstated.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #2
    Anderton
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/29 14:48:14 (permalink)
    bitflipper
    With some experimentation, I predict you will find that a) aliasing is not as common as you might think, and b) the presumed benefits of oversampling are often greatly overstated.



    I agree with a), but not with b). Some sounds benefit tremendously from oversampling; and if there are several sounds that benefit from it in a mix, the effect is cumulative. This video shows just how drastic a difference it can make with synth waveforms that are super-rich in harmonics.
     

     

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #3
    AdamGrossmanLG
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/29 15:50:40 (permalink)
    Well, I have a sound here that is night and day (like Anderton's example, maybe even more so).   No test needed.  It simply exports as if the 2x button is not enabled. 
    #4
    bitflipper
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/29 18:38:10 (permalink)
    You are absolutely right, Craig.
     
    But here's the "but": I would consider that synthesizer defective, demonstrating an inexcusably poor design. There is no technical reason for any purely digital process to not be properly band-limited. How many synths did you have to try before you found one that would alias so badly?
     
    The reason I ask is that I had intended to provide Adam with a procedure for determining if aliasing was indeed his problem. But I became stumped when I could not come up with an example using any of the tools at my disposal. The best I could manage was running a test tone through Guitar Rig at a ridiculous gain setting and treble/presence cranked to the max, and even then the aliased components came in at -66 dB. 


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #5
    Anderton
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/29 18:44:25 (permalink)
    bitflipper
    You are absolutely right, Craig.
     
    But here's the "but": I would consider that synthesizer defective, demonstrating an inexcusably poor design. There is no technical reason for any purely digital process to not be properly band-limited. How many synths did you have to try before you found one that would alias so badly?



    The older the synth, amp sim, or dynamics processor, the more likely you'll find aliasing. Obviously I picked a waveform with a bazillion harmonics to get the point across. 
     
    Upsampling is somewhat like the Console Emulator. Although people say they don't hear a difference with the CE, the cumulative effect over multiple synths/sims is telling. Also remember that just because a synth or amp sim oversamples doesn't mean it oversamples well. Corners are often cut in order to hit a tradeoff between CPU consumption spent on oversampling and sound quality.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #6
    AdamGrossmanLG
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/29 19:18:49 (permalink)
    can you not export oversampling?  if not, whats the point?
     
    I can't get my synth to sound like it does inside the DAW
    #7
    mettelus
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/29 19:55:39 (permalink)
    Did you try "Upsample on render" shown in the above video? Worst case, you can also bounce to a new track, archive the original synth track, and then export (as a pure audio file); but I thought that render setting also affected export (may be in the export dialog, but forget actual placement now).

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    #8
    interpolated
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/29 20:02:15 (permalink)
    You need to enable oversampling on the VST synth itself.  64-bit float should enabled by default. 
     

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    #9
    parco
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/30 08:14:27 (permalink)
    sounds seem better in Musiclab guitars, but still will be much more better if it can upsample in higher multiples like 4x, 8x, 16x, 32x, which making sounds more and more like ADC recording for physical modelling synths........ (because ADC usually oversamples in 128x.................)
    #10
    AdamGrossmanLG
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/30 11:58:12 (permalink)
    I have the 64 bit option when exporting and oversampling IS enabled in the synth (hence I hear it on playback).
    #11
    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/30 12:07:42 (permalink)
    Make sure that "Upsample on Render" is checked for that synth as well. If not it will not export with oversampling.
    Also are you exporting to the same sample rate as the source project?

    Noel Borthwick
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    #12
    AdamGrossmanLG
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/30 12:41:48 (permalink)
    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
    Make sure that "Upsample on Render" is checked for that synth as well. If not it will not export with oversampling.
    Also are you exporting to the same sample rate as the source project?




    Hi Noel,

    "Upsample On Render" is checked.   
     
    I am exporting at the same sample rate 44.1 but going from 24 bit to 16 bit.  not sure if that matters.
    #13
    AdamGrossmanLG
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/30 18:24:55 (permalink)
    OK my fault... I could have sworn I checked "Upsample On Render", but I did not.  Thank you for your help here!  Some good info came out of it anyways!
    #14
    Anderton
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/30 21:07:30 (permalink)
    Look on the bright side...you've proven that the difference is obvious enough that you could hear it when upsampling was not enabled.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    AdamGrossmanLG
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    Re: Oversampling Not Working On Export 2017/05/30 22:07:50 (permalink)
    Anderton
    Look on the bright side...you've proven that the difference is obvious enough that you could hear it when upsampling was not enabled.




     
    YES!  very true!
    #16
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