bitflipper
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[Solved] Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
After 20 years since the last one I had, I've decided to get another standalone drum machine for jam sessions and occasional live performance. In addition to standard kit instruments I'd also like a selection of percussion instruments, e.g. congas, shakers & tambourine. Since it's mostly for improvisation accompaniment, I want to be able to quickly pull up a patch and go, and to switch patterns and throw in fills using footswitches. That means an easy-to-read display, minimal menu navigation and a dedicated knob for setting the tempo. What I don't want is to pre-program song arrangements. It probably won't ever be used for recording, just live jams. Here are the ones I've looked at so far... Boss DR-3$189 but does not include footswitch or power supply so not as cheap as it first appears. Small, dimly-lit LCD display and requires navigating tiny menus to do anything. 100 factory presets and 100 user presets. Potentially clever intro->pattern->fill->pattern->end sequences. Alesis SR-18$259 but includes power supply (and maybe a footswitch but the Sweetwater description was not clear on that). 175 factory presets and 100 user presets. Nice big dial for setting tempo. Has EQ and compression but they're just presets, not tweakable. Volume control is on the back (WTF?). Zoom RT-223$149 but power supply and footswitch are extra. Has the most variety in drum sounds (70 kits) and the largest number of factory presets (440). Volume control is on the back. All three let you control them via footswitch, but I don't know how well. Two of them offer a hokey-sounding bass synth that still might be useful for impromptu jams. I'm hoping somebody who's used one or more of these can offer advice on aspects I can't research online, namely how effective they'd be for my intended purpose. I need to make this purchase in the next 2-3 days, so any insight will be greatly appreciated.
post edited by bitflipper - 2015/05/23 09:47:52
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batsbrew
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/18 14:45:32
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i used to use a zoom 123 (still have it) it's a great little machine. i recorded a lot of demos using drum tracks from the 123 i don't know if it would do what you need, but i'd be willing to part with it (for a nominal fee!) find it, if interested, PM me for info
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mettelus
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/18 15:02:06
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I still have my Zoom Rhythmtrak 234 as well. When Zoom first hit the scene they came on very strong in performance. I am not sure if they maintained that perception over the years, but the brand carried a lot of weight back in the day. I am sort of confused how they "number" their products though, since I bought the 234 20+ years ago, and you have the 223 linked.
post edited by mettelus - 2015/05/18 15:09:00
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tomixornot
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/18 15:03:14
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While I don't have the Alesis SR18, I've got a friend that perform with it extensively and he can operate the fills and pattern change easily with the pedal. I'm not sure about the other units, but for the Alesis SR18, you can trigger the A,A fill, B and B fill. Have you check out BeatBuddy ? I used to think it's not flexible with only one pedal, but I after learning that you can add additional foot switch, I think it's quite capable too, but it's mainly placed on the floor. I would still prefer a table top unit.
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bitflipper
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/18 18:27:23
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The Zoom 123 is apparently the predecessor to the 223, which kinda makes sense. Where the 224 fits in I haven't a clue. I've read some online comments where users preferred the 123 to the 223, just as many prefer the older Alesis SR-16 to the newer SR-18 (both are still available). It's reassuring to hear that people have 20-year-old units that are still working. My initial preference was for the Zoom, as it's the cheapest, but I may not be able to cope with the small orange display. It looks like the same display used on my XK-1, and that one's so hard to read that I never dare making adjustments while I'm playing. Otherwise, I'd take you up on that offer, batsbrew. Maybe I could tape a magnifier over it... I took another look at BeatBuddy ($328 w/footswitch at Sweetwater). It had looked interesting because it's clearly designed for live accompaniment, but I'd crossed it off the list because there's no congas, shakers or tambourine. It does have a brush kit, though, which is cool. It's also pretty cool how you can create MIDI patterns on your computer and transfer them to BeatBuddy. (Sigh) I remember a time when I didn't stress over a $200 purchase...
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mettelus
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/18 19:01:25
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I did a quick search on that, and still confused. There is a 4th model (RT-323) also listed in their manuals ( http://www.zoom.co.jp/downloads/ (third up from bottom)). I think the 123 has the biggest display of the 4, and looked reminiscent of a giant red LED clock, but I do not see the parameter slider that the 234 has (i.e. no hardware dedicated to quick adjustments). Actually, just realized that the 223 doesn't have it either.... Hmmmm. IIRC the 123 and 234 were sold within a couple years of each other, with the 323 then hitting the scene will more "goodies" a few years later. No idea when the 223 came out though. The 323 display looks the most micro-scopic of the bunch.
post edited by mettelus - 2015/05/18 19:09:06
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pentimentosound
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/18 19:22:26
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You can find SR16's cheap. I got a "new/unused" one for $65 with PS, manuals and box. If there'd been an SR18, I would have tried that, since I've had a series of "16's". My wife and I use it, and I practice with it, and might try to work it into my track creation. I'm not sure about that, though..... Another possibility, is the DigiTech Trio which does bass and drums for $179 street. http://digitech.com/en-US/products/trio Michael
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Kamikaze
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/18 22:12:15
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I saw an SR16 for sale at a music store I was showing a roducer friend of mine in Ho Chi Minh, and we couldn't believe that it's still in production. Credit to it that it's still going after 2 decades with how much so much has changed along the way.
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tomixornot
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/19 09:15:47
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Kamikaze I saw an SR16 for sale at a music store I was showing a roducer friend of mine in Ho Chi Minh, and we couldn't believe that it's still in production. Credit to it that it's still going after 2 decades with how much so much has changed along the way.
A good design will last. I've got the Boss DR 880, in term of sound, it's way better than the SR18, but in term of live usability (fill, etc) it's worst than the older DR series.
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bitflipper
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/19 10:27:51
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☄ Helpfulby JohnoL 2015/05/19 15:53:21
That DigiTech product looks very interesting indeed. It's like Band-In-A-Box in a stomp pedal. I'll definitely try that one out if they have one at my local music store. Not sure it'll adapt to my style, as my short attention span never allows me to play more than two chord progressions in a row.
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pentimentosound
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/19 10:41:51
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My local shop carries DigiTech but that one hasn't shown up yet, so I will be checking it out just for fun and to satisfy my curiosity. I have yet to see a Beat Buddy, but have watched YouTubes on both. I think they could be fun for writing. The only Boss drum machine I ever had was a Dr Rhythm in the late '70s? or early '80s. I always thought of the DR series as drum box vs the sample player types. I suppose I'm wrong on that count. Michael
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fireberd
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/19 12:52:19
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I've got both a SR16 and a SR18. The 16, 31A is my "go to" for Country (mainly what I record). The only dumb thing there is no factory 3/4 in the SR16. I have a 3/4 that I got from the salesman at a local music store. He uses a SR16 live (for many music genres) when he does a one man gig. The SR18 has factory 3/4 programs. It also has a bass line (can be enabled or disabled) but I haven't found any way to change keys with the bass (I can go +1 or -1 but that's all). Both units can be user programmed. But, for units with factory programs the Alesis is my choice.
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bitflipper
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/19 13:56:30
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Thanks for that information, fireberd. Lack of 3/4 or 6/8 is kind of a deal-killer for me. Too bad, as I can find SR-16s on eBay or Craigslist for $40-60. I'm leaning toward the SR-18 at the moment. They say it has more percussion sounds, but I've yet to find a listing. Maybe you can tell me: does it have shakers, congas, tambourine and such? I'm looking more for ambient percussion than conventional rock/country beats.
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pentimentosound
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/19 14:09:36
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I needed several of each and made my own for the SR16(but I play drums, too). The SR18 instrument list isn't on the Alesis site, though it does say the there is a percussion bank amongst the 500 sounds. It'd be nice if they listed them, but I suppose there are some video demos with examples of the perc stuff. Michael
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fireberd
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/19 15:14:11
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I haven't used much other than the country programs. They have a list that can be downloaded of what the factory programs are. http://www.alesis.com/sr18
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pentimentosound
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/19 17:17:58
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Thanks for that link. It looks like 474 to 481 might be tambourines? is that right? After looking at that list, I went to the downloads/docs for SR16 and they have waltz patterns available for it as a download. http://www.alesis.com/company/media2.php?download_id=WjZSNgNoBWsGbQJl I might not get to load them and check 'em out right away, but at least that is an option. Michael
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bitflipper
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/19 20:22:19
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I found a YouTube video where some dedicated soul patiently stepped through every single factory preset on the SR18. As expected, 95% of them are useless to me, but it gave me enough of a preview of the sound set to know it would do the trick - although I'll have to spend some time programming it first. The local music store didn't have one to try, so purely on the strength of you guys' helpful information I went ahead and ordered it via eBay. $175 with shipping, plus another $55 for a dual footswitch from Sweetwater. I just happened to have exactly $175 in my pocket in gig money, so I'm only $55 in the hole. Now to work up to something I haven't done in 20 years: a solo gig. It's just background ambient music for a fundraiser and only for a couple of hours. Pay is crap but every little bit helps - plus they'll have food. I'll be lining my pockets with Ziploc bags in preparation.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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pentimentosound
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/19 20:37:19
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LOL I used to tell old pals (on the phone), that "the gigs in Vail CO, were pretty nice because of the food and bathrooms!" The pay was good, too, but the rent was very high and I got very (as in really very in the "most"way) tired of playing Margaritaville! I quit/left when a drunk stopped me while I was playing it. He asked if I knew any Buffet. I said like Margaritaville? (the crowd was roaring) He said, "yeah!" I said, "sure!" and thought that's IT. I am outta here, and I was. Hope the SR18 works out for you! Michael
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Cactus Music
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/20 00:52:00
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It's interesting this topic as I have found that over time less and less equipment, hardware, is made that would serve the solo performer. The first generations of drum machines had footswitches, only Alesis seemed to continue with that. Roland totally screwed up. My old 505 might have been the last of that generation with footswitched start /stop. The Boss series required hands on. The sounds got better but they stopped marketing to solo performers in the early 90's. Digitech stuff is built like a toy and would probably break in live use. The other option is using a USB footswitch and macro your laptop. I use a Xkeys footswitch for playback control. But you can start and stop Sonar with your foot. Trouble with Sonar is you'd need a big controller knob for tempo. I still use my 505 for quick beats. 1985 and still works 100%.
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fireberd
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/20 06:53:26
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When I first bought my SR-16 I asked Alesis support about a 3/4 program. I got some instructions from them on creating a 3/4. It was horrible and unusable. Thankfully the young guy that worked at a local music store was into programming it and allowed me to copy his (useable) 3/4 program (and several others).
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bitflipper
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/20 07:52:05
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Although it's common practice nowadays, I've never been able to bring myself to use a laptop on stage. Reliability doubts, mostly. Although the thought of having Kontakt available makes it very tempting.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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pentimentosound
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/20 09:32:43
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Ha! JohnnyV, you gave me a flashback. I had a 505 and forgot all about it. Too much gear over the past 52 years, I guess. I had a DigiTech overdrive that seemed road-worthy. No issues over 6-7 years I used it. I can't imagine gigging with a laptop/PC, though I did a midi duo for 3-4 years and couldn't imagine that, till I tried it. Michael
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Cactus Music
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/20 10:21:36
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I've been gigging with a laptop since 2004 and never have had issues because I set them up. The only time something went wrong was at a gig where I used an M Audio fast track pro that was a POS. I simply reverted to the onboard audio and only was off line for about 2 minutes in the end. I always have back up plans. All my songs are on a Sony Mini disk walkman too. http://www.cactusmusic.ca/johns_rig.htm
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pentimentosound
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/20 12:55:49
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Thanks for the link John. I enjoyed reading through your set up, and it's good to know it is being done. Michael
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bitflipper
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/21 09:25:11
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"It all fits in a small 14"x 18" road case." Oh my, I have been steadily downsizing since the the B3 days, but I can't imagine being able to carry everything in one Anvil case. Must be nice! I carry two keyboards and two amplifiers plus a gym-bag's worth of cables, pedals and effects. Two keyboard stands, mike stand and folding piano bench. And that's my maximally-trimmed-down setup. I've been thinking about putting my rack-mount Kurzweil synth into a portable case and adding that to my live rig. It normally sits here in the rack, going unused for months at a time. I'm just not sure I want to add yet another thing to haul around.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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fireberd
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/21 11:02:19
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bitflipper, carrying equipment to a gig sounds like me. I have my Pedal Steel Guitar in two cases, a steel guitarists seat (with stuff inside), a Carvin BX500 amp in one rack case, my speaker (15" Eminence EPS-15C speaker in cabinet and road case), POD X3 in a separate bag and a surge protect type power strip. And my wife's equipment, a Martin Guitar, a GK MB200 amp and a 12" speaker, plus mike stand and a bag with mic, cables, etc. "Half the house" and, it all fits in a Prius!! (and doesn't hurt the 52 to 55 MPG).
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
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pentimentosound
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/21 11:13:29
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After gigging solid for 47 years, I am on hiatus! LOL I carry guitars from my study into the control room or our rehearsal room. Oh yeah, I have to carry picks, a capo and strap! LOL Sorry guys but it's fun to NOT "stuff shuffling". Michael
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bitflipper
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/21 19:20:03
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fireberd, I have watched a pedal steel being assembled. Holy crap, it's like an Erector Set (I know you're old enough to get that analogy) DIY construction project every time! Worse than setting up a drum kit. But I suppose anyone with enough coordination to actually work that contraption will have no problem assembling it. And in a Prius, too. Come to think of it, of all the cars I've ever owned (except for my wife's cars) every single one of them has been a van or an SUV with removable seats. Even during the years I wasn't playing, I couldn't imagine being without a vehicle capable of carrying amps and keyboards.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Rimshot
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/22 09:24:49
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Ha, I remember in the 60's driving my Volkswagen van filled with drums, a Hammond B3, Leslie, and amps through the desert on my way to some military base gig. I did that with my group for years. Now I haul drums and a guitar with a small PA in my CRV. Thank goodness for that!
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bitflipper
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Re: Seeking Recommendations for a Drum Machine
2015/05/22 17:23:57
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I, too, have put in many miles in a VW bus. Once in Germany we ended up upside-down in one - while it was packed with gear and me in the back between two Marshall cabs. Luckily, I was 19 and invincible.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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