Answered[Solved in X3c, workaround for X3/X3a/X3b/X3d] Pod Farm and X3 issue

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Johannes H
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 06:01:09 (permalink)
Thank you for your replies.
 
I agree with grumbelweed, if it worked in X2 it should work in X3.


               
#31
Johannes H
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 06:03:59 (permalink)
 
Noel Borthwick:
"Can you check something?  In X3 we respect the interleave reported by VST3 mono plugins so if you try and toggle the track interleave to stereo and have a mono only plugin as the first in the chain, the UI will NOT toggle to stereo since it will force it to mono. Can you report back what happens when you have only pod farm in the bin and try and set the track interleave to stereo?"
 
Thank you for your reply Noel. I hope I understand this corectly. I set Pod Farm back to its original settings like in X2.
I have a mono signal and only Pod Farm in the fx bin. When I have the interleave in mono, I have the same processed signal in both channels and when I have the interleave in stereo I have the processed signal in the left channel and a bypassed signal in the right channel.


               
#32
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 08:33:13 (permalink)
As Craig said there appears to be some sort of interop problem when its being set to stereo mode by SONAR.
X3 has new VST code to specifically handle stereo and mono plugins and now uses effGetInputProperties and the "speaker arrangement" to determine what the plugin supports. In earlier versions this wasn't the case and as a result plugins with multiple *mono* inputs weren't handled properly. 
 
Saying "if it worked in X2 it should work in X3" is not necessarily such a binary decision. We have to support a vast number of plugin configurations and a tiny change can trigger different interpretations of the VST API to cause incompatibilities.  In this case the change is definitely for the better since several other plugins that did NOT work in X2 now work well in X3.
Anyway until I look into this specific plugin I don't know whether the issue is on our end or not. Either way we'll figure something out and I will contact Line6 if necessary.

Noel Borthwick
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#33
Johannes H
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 08:49:03 (permalink)
Thanks Noel.
 
As it is now, we have a solution that seems to work fine.


               
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 08:51:43 (permalink)
 
Thanks Noel.
 
I understand what you're saying about how the new method works, and to me that agrees with that section of the manual I inserted.
 
The weird thing here is how the signal is being split. As Johannes first pointed out, it's not like a stereo effect is being added to a mono track - the plug-in is somehow splitting the signal into two (which are panned left and right) but only processing the left channel.
 
However, as per the manual, setting the track's interleave to mono pulls everything back to the centre.
 
 

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#35
Grumbleweed_
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 08:54:57 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
As Craig said there appears to be some sort of interop problem when its being set to stereo mode by SONAR.
X3 has new VST code to specifically handle stereo and mono plugins and now uses effGetInputProperties and the "speaker arrangement" to determine what the plugin supports. In earlier versions this wasn't the case and as a result plugins with multiple *mono* inputs weren't handled properly. 
 
Saying "if it worked in X2 it should work in X3" is not necessarily such a binary decision. We have to support a vast number of plugin configurations and a tiny change can trigger different interpretations of the VST API to cause incompatibilities.  In this case the change is definitely for the better since several other plugins that did NOT work in X2 now work well in X3.
Anyway until I look into this specific plugin I don't know whether the issue is on our end or not. Either way we'll figure something out and I will contact Line6 if necessary.




Thanks. Apologies if there was a hint of attitude but it is never nice when an update to your DAW messes with your primary guitar plugin.
The solution to the problem is simple but obviously not an expected thing to have to do when Pod Farm has worked in at least two previous iterations of Sonar.
Hopefully you and Line 6 will come to a deal .
 
Grum.
 

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#36
Marcus Curtis
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 09:42:51 (permalink)
I have the same issue using Pod Farm. I get the processed signal only in the left channel and a bypassed  signal in the right channel.  The work around in the Plug In Manager seems to be a good solution.
 
My question to you Johannes is how do you unlock Pod Farm? Did you download the software or are you using your hardware and plugging into your computer via USB to unlock it.
 
The reason I ask this is after reading this thread last night I decided to try and duplicate the problem. I have a Pod pro 3 that unlocks Pod Farm when it is plugged in. After checking out the issue I decided to check the Pod Drivers in the preference section under edit. The Pod 3 is not my main audio interface. I use the VS-100 as the main interface.
 
I unchecked all the vs-100 drivers in the driver section (ASIO) I tried to check the ASIO drivers for the Pod. It would not allow me to do this. Even after hitting apply. I switched to WDM and it used the wave profiler. I saw the pod and I could select it. I switched back to ASIO. It saw the VS-100 and the Pod 3 pro. I still could not check the Pod unit and use it as an audio interface instead of the VS-100.
 
I then switched off the VS-100. I was then able to select the Pod as an audio interface. I switched off the Pod and I got the blue screen of death. Major crash dump.
 
This is the first crash I ever got using the Sonar X series. This is also the first one I got using windows 7. It seems I can plugin the Pod to unlock Pod Farm but when the VS-100 is plugged in I cannot use the Pod as an audio interface using ASIO drivers without unplugging the VS-100.
 
I wonder if there is a conflict between the Pod 3 drivers and the vst plugs. This is an X3 issue. This did not happen in Sonar 2. I know the limits of ASIO and I am not trying to use two devices at once. I am simply trying to switch from one device to another. This is really no big deal. I can work around it. I just thought it was worth mentioning here.
 
 

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#37
BlackWave
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 09:52:53 (permalink)

Thank you for the thread. I also have this problem and wrote to Cakewalk on October the 1st with some pictures attached to make it clear and understandable, but I didn't get any answer yet.

I also discovered that if you add some plugins behind the Pod Farm Plugin in the FX bin (in my case the RevolutionZ 32bit) and deactivate it comes out processed anyway on the left and right side. That is also a bit strange. If I add TH2 behind it does not work: On the left you hear processed and on the right it is clean.
docs.google.com/file/d/0B6CudRGVxDVsUjMwUHhKTV8xcWc/edit?usp=sharing


#38
Johannes H
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 09:56:07 (permalink)
Hi Marcus, I have a Line 6 USB soundcard, I guess it works like a dongle.


               
#39
guitartrek
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 10:35:09 (permalink)
I don't have X3 yet.  My projects are full of PodFarm plugins (hundreds of PODFarm tracks across all projects).  All the tracks with PODFarm in them are stereo.  But all the source wave forms are in mono - I record unprocessed guitar signal in mono and PODFarm converts to stereo.  Will I have to change settings on every instance of PodFarm or will my old projects play fine?

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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 10:42:03 (permalink)
guitartrek
I don't have X3 yet.  My projects are full of PodFarm plugins (hundreds of PODFarm tracks across all projects).  All the tracks with PODFarm in them are stereo.  But all the source wave forms are in mono - I record unprocessed guitar signal in mono and PODFarm converts to stereo.  Will I have to change settings on every instance of PodFarm or will my old projects play fine?




Once you have changed Pod Farm (or Elements) in the Plugin Manager it is changed for any instance of that plugin. It isn't a track based edit.
 
Grum.

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#41
guitartrek
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 10:58:31 (permalink)
grumbleweed4162
Once you have changed Pod Farm (or Elements) in the Plugin Manager it is changed for any instance of that plugin. It isn't a track based edit.
 
Grum.




Thanks Grum.  So upon initial setup of X3 - I would need to change one of those parameters for PODFarm and all projects should work fine.  

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
#42
beltrom
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 11:02:10 (permalink)
guitartrek
grumbleweed4162
Once you have changed Pod Farm (or Elements) in the Plugin Manager it is changed for any instance of that plugin. It isn't a track based edit.
 
Grum.




Thanks Grum.  So upon initial setup of X3 - I would need to change one of those parameters for PODFarm and all projects should work fine.  




Don't forget the elements if you have and use those. In my case more common than Pod farm itself.
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 11:26:52 (permalink)
beltrom
guitartrek
grumbleweed4162
Once you have changed Pod Farm (or Elements) in the Plugin Manager it is changed for any instance of that plugin. It isn't a track based edit.
 
Grum.




Thanks Grum.  So upon initial setup of X3 - I would need to change one of those parameters for PODFarm and all projects should work fine.  




Don't forget the elements if you have and use those. In my case more common than Pod farm itself.


If you read the quote you quoted you'll see that Elements were not forgotten
Grum.

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Marcus Curtis
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 13:38:50 (permalink)
Johannes H
Hi Marcus, I have a Line 6 USB soundcard, I guess it works like a dongle.
 



Is this your main audio interface? yep your line 6 device is a dang dongle. I was just wondering if anyone else is having other issues aside from the vst plug-in feature.
 
side note= the next song I write will be titled Dang Dongle

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#45
myconsumerclub
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 13:39:17 (permalink)
pretty sure that podfarm is not dependent on using your unot as a dongle maybe you should contact L6 to talk about it they may have a solution , they are super nice people and gave me a free upgrade to 2.5 when my version of podfarm would not work with windows 8. I have read that the product does not require any gear to act as a dongle but I use their gear to record with so I can't say for sure if this is true or not. 

Samsung I7 8 mb ram windows 8 64 bit on everything x2 & X1 producer line 6 podfarm gold interface event monitors Ibanez rg 350 guitar and GA6CE classical edirol pcr 500 keystation 88 plugins out the wazoo
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beltrom
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 13:44:45 (permalink)
grumbleweed4162
If you read the quote you quoted you'll see that Elements were not forgotten
Grum.



Sorry - forgot to read...

 
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Marcus Curtis
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 14:54:14 (permalink)
myconsumerclub
pretty sure that podfarm is not dependent on using your unot as a dongle maybe you should contact L6 to talk about it they may have a solution , they are super nice people and gave me a free upgrade to 2.5 when my version of podfarm would not work with windows 8. I have read that the product does not require any gear to act as a dongle but I use their gear to record with so I can't say for sure if this is true or not. 


Podfarm is not free. You can purchase a license for your computer or use an ilok device. You don't need a dongle but it is just one way to unlock Pod Farm
 
If you purchased a line 6 Pod 3 series or Pod HD series hardware device you get to use Pod Farm with your purchase. You just download and install. The hardware needs to be plugged in to unlock the software. Try unplugging your gear and open up Pod Farm in Sonar on a prerecorded track. Does it work?

http://www.marcuscurtismusic.com/  

Windows 10 ultimate, Sonar Platinum, AMD Phenom 2 x6 1075T processor 3.00 GHz, (6 cores) 8 gigs of Ram, 

Audio interfaces=VS-100, Pod X3 live pro, Boss GT-100, Boss GP10
Midi Controllers=Edirol  PCR 800, roland GR-55.    

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#48
Johannes H
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 15:09:54 (permalink)
Hi again Marcus.
 
The Line 6 soundcard is my main audio interface, but it`s getting a bit old, it`s USB 1.1.
On the other hand it works fine and I don`t feel limited by it.


               
#49
Grumbleweed_
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 15:39:16 (permalink)
Johannes H
Hi again Marcus.
 
The Line 6 soundcard is my main audio interface, but it`s getting a bit old, it`s USB 1.1.
On the other hand it works fine and I don`t feel limited by it.




If you want to use Pod Farm having a Line 6 device is the best way to do it. Due to circumstances beyond my control I use a Propellerhead Balance - which is gorgeous compared to my old UX1 - but I miss the direct monitoring and being able to have the standalone version of Pod Farm open outside of my DAW (without some convoluted workaround involving ASIO4ALL and my Balance ASIO drivers).
You stick with it
 
Grum.   

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Anderton
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/06 22:04:10 (permalink)
Marcus Curtis
 
Podfarm is not free. You can purchase a license for your computer or use an ilok device. You don't need a dongle but it is just one way to unlock Pod Farm




However, there is a free version with a limited number of amps and effects. Between that and the free versions of AmpliTube and Guitar Rig, you can make some pretty decent noises.
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Marcus Curtis
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/07 08:21:28 (permalink)
Anderton
Marcus Curtis
 
Podfarm is not free. You can purchase a license for your computer or use an ilok device. You don't need a dongle but it is just one way to unlock Pod Farm




However, there is a free version with a limited number of amps and effects. Between that and the free versions of AmpliTube and Guitar Rig, you can make some pretty decent noises.


True, but the free version pf Pod Farm only has 2 amps, and these are not their best amps. I think I would just use TH2 Producer before I waste time on their Pod free addition, but that is just my opinion.
 
If someone is low on funds then the free editions of Guitar Rig, AmpliTube, and Pod Farm would be a great option. If this is the case then people should also consider Shred and everything else AcmeBarGig has to offer for free. 

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Windows 10 ultimate, Sonar Platinum, AMD Phenom 2 x6 1075T processor 3.00 GHz, (6 cores) 8 gigs of Ram, 

Audio interfaces=VS-100, Pod X3 live pro, Boss GT-100, Boss GP10
Midi Controllers=Edirol  PCR 800, roland GR-55.    

Ozone 7, Podfarm, Th2 Full Version, Melda, True Pianos Full Version, and a whole bunch of free VST plugins which can be found through my site.
 
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Marcus Curtis
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/07 08:46:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Marcus Curtis 2013/10/09 10:53:13
Johannes H
Hi again Marcus.
 
The Line 6 soundcard is my main audio interface, but it`s getting a bit old, it`s USB 1.1.
On the other hand it works fine and I don`t feel limited by it.


Hi Johannes
 
I sold my UX2 on Craigslist when USB 3.0 came out. I saw the hand writing on the wall with USB 1.1. When I sold my unit I already owned a Pod 3 pro. It probably is time to upgrade your audio interface, but I would hang on to the your line 6 sound card just to keep the full version of Pod Farm.
 
I replaced my UX2 with the VS-100. The preamps are much better and it is USB 2.0. There are a lot more options these days.

http://www.marcuscurtismusic.com/  

Windows 10 ultimate, Sonar Platinum, AMD Phenom 2 x6 1075T processor 3.00 GHz, (6 cores) 8 gigs of Ram, 

Audio interfaces=VS-100, Pod X3 live pro, Boss GT-100, Boss GP10
Midi Controllers=Edirol  PCR 800, roland GR-55.    

Ozone 7, Podfarm, Th2 Full Version, Melda, True Pianos Full Version, and a whole bunch of free VST plugins which can be found through my site.
 
#53
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/08 19:56:30 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby Dan Gonzalez [Cakewalk] 2013/10/09 11:38:42
Well, I spent a bunch of time investigating this one and as I suspected the issue is cloudy. I thought I'd share some  technical details about this, because it makes a good "case study" of how fragile some of this stuff is and why plugin compatibility tends to be such a complex issue. 
 
As mentioned earlier in this thread, X3 actually deals with plugin level interleave much better than X2 or earlier in order to properly support mono only VST2 plugins, esp those that support mono sidechains such as Fabfilter and Waves stuff. In X3, SONAR specifically validates plugins for mono and stereo compatibility when the plugin is loaded. As part of this process it calls a VST2 API (called effSetSpeakerArrangement) to configure the plugin interleave. Since we test for mono and stereo, the API is called once for mono and then again subsequently for stereo. What appears to happen with PodFarm is that the call to set it to mono appears to *permanently* lock the plugin into a mono state. i.e. despite SONAR setting it to stereo subsequently it stays locked in mono. As a result the right channel is unprocessed after that point.
 
Now whats even more interesting is that the same behavior can even be observed in X2 and earlier :)
To repro it in X2 do this:
Load  your project with a mono track feeding PodFarm on a track. Notice that the track interleave is stereo.
Now toggle the track interleave to mono and then back to stereo. 
After you do this the PodPro is stuck in mono processing mode the same way as in X3. 
 
The only reason you see this behavior permanently in X3 is because we started calling this API at the time the plugin is loaded, to check for supported interleaves. This exposes this issue earlier on and more visibly.
 
Anyway I am in touch with Line6 now and one way or another I'm sure we'll figure out a resolution.
 

Noel Borthwick
Senior Manager Audio Core, BandLab
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#54
SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/08 20:07:36 (permalink)
 
Thanks for the update Noel.
 
And I can confirm the X2 behaviour you mention happens here exactly as you describe.
 
 

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Anderton
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/09 00:21:32 (permalink)
Thanks, Noel! Meanwhile, Force Stereo Operation solves the problem for me so it's not a big deal.
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Johannes H
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/09 09:45:10 (permalink)
Thanks a million Noel.
 
Noel Borthwick:
"Now whats even more interesting is that the same behavior can even be observed in X2 and earlier :)
To repro it in X2 do this:
Load  your project with a mono track feeding PodFarm on a track. Notice that the track interleave is stereo.
Now toggle the track interleave to mono and then back to stereo.
After you do this the PodPro is stuck in mono processing mode the same way as in X3."
 
I can repro this too.


               
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Marcus Curtis
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/10/09 10:51:03 (permalink)
Thank You Noel for your research and your hard work into this matter. It is much appreciated! 

http://www.marcuscurtismusic.com/  

Windows 10 ultimate, Sonar Platinum, AMD Phenom 2 x6 1075T processor 3.00 GHz, (6 cores) 8 gigs of Ram, 

Audio interfaces=VS-100, Pod X3 live pro, Boss GT-100, Boss GP10
Midi Controllers=Edirol  PCR 800, roland GR-55.    

Ozone 7, Podfarm, Th2 Full Version, Melda, True Pianos Full Version, and a whole bunch of free VST plugins which can be found through my site.
 
#58
Mouser
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/11/04 18:05:52 (permalink)
Has this been fixed in Sonar X3c? I just upgraded from X2 and now have X3c Pro and the POD Farm 2.5 plugins. I don't run into this problem. Toggling the track's Interleave between Mono/Stereo numerous times causes no problem for me - the output of the effect is mono or stereo as expected.
 
It also works fine regardless if the Cakewalk Plug-In Mgr - "Enable Mono Processing" is checked or not for these Plug ins. I used to leave this box UNchecked in X2 to avoid the issue, but apparently I no longer need to.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Pod Farm and X3 issue 2013/11/04 21:57:03 (permalink)
Yes this was fixed in X3C. We made a fix from the application side to address it.

Noel Borthwick
Senior Manager Audio Core, BandLab
My Blog, Twitter, BandLab Profile
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