Some Creative ideas I am needing help with and some rambleing from me :)

Hi all

Hopeing for more of a discusion on this and see if any one has any ideas for me to try with what I am working on.

Ok so Ive started writing and recording a song as I go along Normaly the style I record is up tempo Rock around 180 - 200 bpm

This track is a nice ballad at 140 - bpm and is in a simple 4/4  3 x verse and 3 x chorus

It starts with some finger picking guitar with a basic Kick snare and closed hats pattern with a slight shuffle on the hats to accent some of the guitar work.

It has a haunting feel to it and I plan to add some strings like a chelo or something in the back ground over the finger picking guitar to add more atmosphere to it :)

The chorus bursts in at the same tempo with a nice crunchy sound and ends leaveing a 2 bar pause before going back in to the verse ( just a reptition as before)

OK so this is what I was looking for a bit of advice on what I could do in the verse

Ive tryed adding a bass guitar but it sounds very bland playing single notes on each Chord and leting it ring out but it sounds like it shouldnt be there or if I play the same rhythm its just far to much and takes away from the guitar part. Ive tryed varios bass riffs and styles over it even slaping each string instead of playing with a pic.
 
It it sits very well in the chorus with the distorted guitars and I am happy with that part.

I know theres no writen rule that the verse has to have a bass in it so I could leave it out untill the chorus but trying to think what else I could add in instead of the bass in the verse

Any one been in this situation before that could throw some Ideas my way ?
Maybe something off of the Fantom or one of the Synths in Sonar ? Any Ideas?

Ive never realy played about with the Synth sounds in sonar so maybe this will be my chance to try.

Any ideas or thoughts would be great and thanks to any one wiling to chat about this :D

Thanks all

Norrie

Difficult to say without hearing it Norrie, any chance of a link?

One thing that occurs though is that you could echo the vocal melody with a high register bass, then drop down to low notes for power when the chorus hits. This would 'introduce' the bass, so it doesn't sound odd arriving later. Fretless would be nice for that, as Zuma suggested.

This track is a nice ballad at 140 - bpm

You and I live in very different timescales, Norrie! In my world, 140bpm is up-tempo and 200bpm is a sign of way too much coffee. Not a criticism, just an observation that made me smile.

A synth pad can be an easy way to give a ballad some glue. Either Dim Pro or Z3ta+ should be able to provide something suitable. Just keep it low in the mix. The idea is to have it add a smooth gloss by filling in the holes and dips, like putty on drywall. Too much of it will overly soften the rhythmic elements.

As for the bass, you might try adding a chorus effect to it. It should be just wet enough to be audible, and you'll want to have lots of harmonic content in the bass as well as an EQ boost around 900Hz or so. Make sure the EQ precedes the chorus. Some subtle distortion on the bass will also give the chorus something to work with. This is the easiest trick I know for instantly making a boring bass part more interesting.

Something I like to do with bass is overlay a down-tuned normal guitar. It's an old Nashville trick from way back. You mix the guitar under the bass until you can just hear it. It gives the bass attack and definition and a broader spectrum for effects to mangle. Doubling the bass with other instruments is a tried-and-true technique. Piano is another choice for enriching the harmonic complexity of a bass line. Even a tuba has been used to double bass parts. And, of course, synthesizers.

Just think about layers, and remember that every layer doesn't have to be in there starting at 01:01:000. Layers can come and go for more interesting dynamics. Consider, for example, doubling the bass only on the choruses.

jamesg1213


Difficult to say without hearing it Norrie, any chance of a link?

One thing that occurs though is that you could echo the vocal melody with a high register bass, then drop down to low notes for power when the chorus hits. This would 'introduce' the bass, so it doesn't sound odd arriving later. Fretless would be nice for that, as Zuma suggested.

I shall try and get a chance today to bounce whats been done and let you hear :)

I was thinking late last night and since the chorus I have is working with low notes but not low notes in the verse I will try it higher up in the register again I had tryed that but it still wasnt right.

Norrie

bitflipper

This track is a nice ballad at 140 - bpm

You and I live in very different timescales, Norrie! In my world, 140bpm is up-tempo and 200bpm is a sign of way too much coffee. Not a criticism, just an observation that made me smile.

A synth pad can be an easy way to give a ballad some glue. Either Dim Pro or Z3ta+ should be able to provide something suitable. Just keep it low in the mix. The idea is to have it add a smooth gloss by filling in the holes and dips, like putty on drywall. Too much of it will overly soften the rhythmic elements.

As for the bass, you might try adding a chorus effect to it. It should be just wet enough to be audible, and you'll want to have lots of harmonic content in the bass as well as an EQ boost around 900Hz or so. Make sure the EQ precedes the chorus. Some subtle distortion on the bass will also give the chorus something to work with. This is the easiest trick I know for instantly making a boring bass part more interesting.

Something I like to do with bass is overlay a down-tuned normal guitar. It's an old Nashville trick from way back. You mix the guitar under the bass until you can just hear it. It gives the bass attack and definition and a broader spectrum for effects to mangle. Doubling the bass with other instruments is a tried-and-true technique. Piano is another choice for enriching the harmonic complexity of a bass line. Even a tuba has been used to double bass parts. And, of course, synthesizers.

Just think about layers, and remember that every layer doesn't have to be in there starting at 01:01:000. Layers can come and go for more interesting dynamics. Consider, for example, doubling the bass only on the choruses.

Hey ther bit Flipper !

Good to hear form you!

Haha that first part did make me laugh oh how I do likes me coffee

I think like you said a synth may be the way to go and floowing what was said above a fretless bass type sound I think would fit right in there

I have done almost as you have said already for the bass part in the chorus I have added a chorus and a slight distortion and also a tape sim

It seems to sit very nice in the Chorus now ( or at least I thought it did when I was geting anoyed with it )
Going back to it today could be abother matter haha

That Nashvill Trick sounds good and is something I would like to try in future things can I ask one thing though. Forinstance In this track I am playing the top String tuned down to D already so how would I go about this ? Sorryabout the question I am ook in E and D and then I start to go out of my comfert zone but I would like to learn

Thanks again

Norrie

Guitarhacker


Norrie... if you have TTS, you have a fretless patch in there. Search the plugs you have, you'll probably find more.

I was thinking the same thing as Bitflipper.... to me 140 is uptempo and moving along... Yeah Baby was at 140bpm...  180 to 200 is those jazz cats that play blindingly fast... too much coffee at the very least.   A ballad is 60 to 80 bpm.... I'd take the numbers and divide by half.... so taking 140 by half yields 70... right in the ballad range...

A few thoughts on composition: There is nothing wrong with going bass-less on the intor and even through the entire first verse. Then as you enter the chorus...or the second verse bring the bass  in and kick the drums up a notch in energy.

Bruce's  Born in the USA comes to mind.... I haven't heard that song in a long time but IIRC he sings the chorus (intro?)  and the verse with guitar(?) and snare popping in the background.... then every body comes in together a bit further into the song.

My newer song Tender Touch, kinda follows that line of thought, the whole band kicks in further into the song. Acoustic starts, a synth pad lurks in the background on V2 and the piano starts peeking in as well..... then everybody joins the party.


You have my permission to be creative.

Hi there

I get where your comeing from with the bpm If I set the bpm to 70 instead of one 40 It would still have the same feel I just preffer to play with the click at double its just my way of working maybe not the correct way haha but it works for me when playing slower somgs in the 70 bpm range I find it easyer to double it.

I hope that make sence

bitflipper

A synth pad can be an easy way to give a ballad some glue.

+1.

HI all

I said I would upload a sample of what ive been talking about its going to need a lot of work to sound good but you will get the Idea of what I was meening :)

Heres a min or so of it in MP3 format

http://ul.to/ug3nrt

And with out the bass http://ul.to/9s1s4z

Norrie

gustabo


Wow, you are really over compensating bass frequencies!

Could you elaborate a bit for me please ?

I am trying to learn so any help is good help for me :)

Ive hardly touched the mix on this because I am still tracking but if I am doing something wrong I would really like to know what?
so I can fix it before I ruin it  :)

Thanks man

Norrie

I will do tomorow when I get on the other computer again.

I just did a quick 5 min tweek  before puting that up to let the guys hear what I was on about I hardly touched it just brought the levels up and tryed to make everythign sit a bit better for geting my Idea across and see if what I was talking about before made sence lol

Norrie

gustabo


I really like the sound of the opening guitar.
What was the signal path for that?
Guitar, effects, etc.

Thanks man glad you liked the sound of that :) There is no Efx on it at all at the moment.

It was played on my parker night fly useing the fishman pick up ( Its actualy the Same Guitar played on the Chorus just changed pickups great guitar for all styles )

I Just double tracked it played it twice as best I could and panned it 80 left and 80 right
It sounds to me like a slight Chorus type of efx ? but I think thats just the way I have played it has caused that since I havent added anything to it ?

But Yeah it was just the guitar straight in to the front of the VS 700 nothing in the Fx bin and sent to the master and just put boost 11 to bring the sound up a bit before leting any one hear what I was on about :)

Its a lovely guitar and can get some great tones

Norrie

norrie... set up a soundclick site.... you can actually set up several and have them all under your control... I have 2...

then use one for finished tunes, and use the other as a scrap book... post stuff like these works in progress and delete them when you're done.... it's so easy to upload and delete songs on SC... and they're streaming for us folk that don't like to DL anything.

just leave one song in the site to keep it open and free of SC's roving eye for unused sites.

Guitarhacker


norrie... set up a soundclick site.... you can actually set up several and have them all under your control... I have 2...

then use one for finished tunes, and use the other as a scrap book... post stuff like these works in progress and delete them when you're done.... it's so easy to upload and delete songs on SC... and they're streaming for us folk that don't like to DL anything.

just leave one song in the site to keep it open and free of SC's roving eye for unused sites.

Thanks Guitar hacker thats a better Idea

I Have a soundclick already http://www.soundclick.com...22&songID=10007266

Ive only been recording for 6months now and learning bit by bit so Ive actualy only finished 2 songs one of them is on an Mp3 unsigned website and one on sound click

The one on sound click needs me to sort out the Kick drum being 2 loud and the bass to low

But yeah a secong sound click for posting unfinished samples would be a great Idea :)

Thanks man!

Norrie

gustabo

gustabo


Wow, you are really over compensating bass frequencies!

Never mind, it was my player that was screwing it up, I had just updated foobar 2000 and your mp3 was the first thing I listened to after updating, but, after listening to other things, I quickly realized that it was something in foobar that I had to reset. All is well now!
Never mind about my comment about overcomping the bass frequencies, it was my listening environment, not the mix!

 
Cut that out, already! I keep wanting to whack my monitor to kill that damn thing, hehehe :-)