Some Guitar Re Amping questions and advice please.

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Norrie
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2011/10/29 20:39:57 (permalink)

Some Guitar Re Amping questions and advice please.

  Hi all

I like to record my guitar tracks in Waves GTR3 and other various amp sims so that I can always change my tone if I feel I need to .

Some time's I like to send the dry track out to my Vamp pro and this works great.

Recently I decided to go about sending the dry signal from the output of my VS-700 straight to a couple pf amps I decided to test this with a Black Star HT-5 and a Marshal JCM2000 but I am hearing what I can only describe as white noise coming from the amp when I have not hit play on my desk.

I should add I emailed Black Star about this before trying and they said this wouldn't be a problem and was safe to just connect from the out put to the input of the amp.

Once I have hit play the signal sends no problem but there is stil white noise with it and distorting my sound.

Ive tried using a Di Box in the chain but with no luck still the same problem

I know I am missing something here and hope some one can pipe in with what I am doing wrong Thanks again to every one for all your help in advance.

Norrie

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8 Replies Related Threads

    vinski
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    Re:Some Guitar Re Amping questions and advice please. 2011/10/30 06:33:55 (permalink)
    I *think* your advice from Blackstar was wrong. Guitar amp inputs work at different levels, and ohm(?), etc to line sources. That's why we have Hi-Z inputs for instruments on interfaces. A DI box works slightly differently too. What you'd need is something like the Radial X-Amp, or similar. I'm afraid my memory is too poor to give details but there is info out there on Hi-Z's, line levels and amp inputs if you need more. Good luck.

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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Some Guitar Re Amping questions and advice please. 2011/10/30 19:34:46 (permalink)
    Norrie


      Hi all

    I like to record my guitar tracks in Waves GTR3 and other various amp sims so that I can always change my tone if I feel I need to .

    Some time's I like to send the dry track out to my Vamp pro and this works great.

    Recently I decided to go about sending the dry signal from the output of my VS-700 straight to a couple pf amps I decided to test this with a Black Star HT-5 and a Marshal JCM2000 but I am hearing what I can only describe as white noise coming from the amp when I have not hit play on my desk.

    I should add I emailed Black Star about this before trying and they said this wouldn't be a problem and was safe to just connect from the out put to the input of the amp.

    Once I have hit play the signal sends no problem but there is stil white noise with it and distorting my sound.

    Ive tried using a Di Box in the chain but with no luck still the same problem

    I know I am missing something here and hope some one can pipe in with what I am doing wrong Thanks again to every one for all your help in advance.

    Norrie

    Are your outs from the VS-700 set to +4 or -10? Try changing them to the opposite of what they are just to try it. Have you tried lowering the output on your VS-700 that is sending out to the amp? You should be having no problems with this as long as the signal into the amp is not too hot...you don't need much and will have to experiment with how much is too much or too little. I'd definitely not use a DI coming out of your VS-700 as it shouldn't be needed.
     
    -Danny

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    Norrie
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    Re:Some Guitar Re Amping questions and advice please. 2011/10/30 19:43:10 (permalink)
     Hi Danny

    Thanks for the reply

    I will need to go and check about the +4 and -10. Can you tell me were to check this as my mind has drawn a blank ?

    Ive tried lowering the out put signal even with the slightest signal and not even playing the track I still get the white noise at the same level coming from the amp it seems very strange.

    Would I be right in saying that I would only need the likes of the radial if I was recording my line level input at the same time as an amp ?

    Norrie

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Some Guitar Re Amping questions and advice please. 2011/10/31 08:11:54 (permalink)
    What happens when you unplug the cable going in to the amp?

    Is that amp totally quiet while sitting at idle with no cords attached?


    best regards,
    mike


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    Norrie
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    Re:Some Guitar Re Amping questions and advice please. 2011/10/31 08:36:20 (permalink)
     Hi Mike !

    Long time no speak ! Hope you are doing well ?

    Yeah with no cable in to the black star its totaly silent and the same with the JCM

    The reason I am curious about this is I was hoping to use a Hughes and kettner Tubman MKII to change some of my old tracks I did with pod farm and was never happy with the sounds

    Norrie

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Some Guitar Re Amping questions and advice please. 2011/10/31 09:44:20 (permalink)
    Ok so if we know it is the interconnection that causes the noise you should re-evaluate your gain structure and search for someplace that the noise floor is being raised.

    Honestly, I am just guessing that this is a noise floor issue but it is the first thing that I would investigate if I were in your room.

    One thing about using a Reamp instead of using a direct connection is that you can get really low noise.

    The idea of using -10dBV instead of +4dBu out from the VS is good because what you need to do is pad down the output so it's not hitting the amp so loudly that you can't effectively use the amp's gain structure for coloring your sound.

    I'm guessing you have the analog output of the VS turned down a whole bunch... and you are increasing the signal-to-noise ratio of the VS to guitar amp system. When you then turn up the signal at the guitar amp the higher ratio of noise is also amplified and it becomes apparent. (This is a massive over simplification)

    The noise floor I am speaking of is primarily contributed by the analog output section of the VS and that is why it occurs regardless of the fact that there is no digital file playing back.

    The genius of the Reamp and it's licensees is that it uses a transformer and pad system that is specifically tailored to reduce the board's output and get it into the amplifier without increasing noise.

    An ideal generic reamping connection mimics a direct guitar to amp bridge of approx 6 kilo ohm to 1 Mega ohm.

    The VS output is approx 600 ohm... way lower than 6k.

    A pad can help but doesn't deal with the impedance bridge properly... your frequency response will do weird things... but with a guitar tone it may not matter.

    A direct box used backwards will seem to work but it will actually increase the noise floor because it will step up the signal and you'll have to turn it down even lower to use it.

    A in-line transformer can step the signal down but it's not ideal... the Reamp circuit is basically the step down transformer with the extra stuff that makes it all work as best as possible.




    Now having said all that:

    regardless of what you use to connect the VS to the amplifier...

    What I would do is set your VS analog output to something normal... what I mean is set the output of the actual hardware to it's nominal level.

    Now take your actual track output level control and reduce it so that you are reducing the level digitally rather than later in the analog domain. When you reduce the level digitally there is almost no change in signal-to-noise ratios.

    Trying that should take just a minute or two and maybe it will improve things.

    It may not... but I hope it does.

    In the end all that really matters is that you get a signal into the amp at a level that lets you use the amp as you want to.

    If the above didn't help... try the opposite... put the track back to nominal level and and turn down the analog outputs of the VS. That will only take a few moments to try.

    Find the gain structure on the outputs that produces the least amount of noise.






    This issue may also be related to the way the TRS output of the VS reacts to being hooked up to the TS input of the guitar amp. You may be turning the system in to a white noise antenna by using a standard guitar cord.

    If that is the case you'll see some benefit from making sure you have a plan to go from balanced to unbalanced without shorting "pin 3". A specially wired cable with a TRS connector on one side and a TS on another side would be a start.

    see number 9 here:

    http://www.rane.com/n110fig4a.gif



    You may want to keep in mind that a Reamp device will anticipate the balanced to unbalanced connection and you'll be able to use it to adapt two normal cables to work properly... so you will not need to make a custom cable like I just suggested.




    Good luck and all the best,
    mike



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    Norrie
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    Re:Some Guitar Re Amping questions and advice please. 2011/10/31 09:58:35 (permalink)
     Hey Mike

    Thanks for the detailed reply

    One other thing that slipped my mind is that I was running a stage box from the VS700 to my control room and using the send on the stage box then connecting to the amp.

    I am going to take the stage box out of the equation and see if it makes a difference.

    I will also try all you said and report back but if I have no luck and you think it will solve it I will order up one of the Randal Re Amp boxes

    Thanks for taking the time to help

    Norrie

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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Some Guitar Re Amping questions and advice please. 2011/10/31 11:23:20 (permalink)
    +1 to all that Mike mentions...especially this:

    "This issue may also be related to the way the TRS output of the VS reacts to being hooked up to the TS input of the guitar amp. You may be turning the system in to a white noise antenna by using a standard guitar cord.

    If that is the case you'll see some benefit from making sure you have a plan to go from balanced to unbalanced without shorting "pin 3". A specially wired cable with a TRS connector on one side and a TS on another side would be a start."

    I totally forgot to mention that in my reply, Norrie. I have to use 1/4 regular guitar end coming out of my Layla or RME and a TRS going into my amp. I do the same with my power amps when using my real rig live but I go XLR out of my guitar pre-amp on one end, TRS 1/4 on the other into my power amps. Hmm...thinking more about this now....I may even be using full TRS cables from soundcard to amps when re-amping....I honestly can't remember and I'm not at my studio right now..I know I'm using something different there...but for the life of me I can't remember! Uggh....I'll check on this for you tonight and report back....I'm just about positive that it's regular 1/4 on one end, TRS on the other though. The reason I did this was due to a little noise, but mostly a slight 60 cycle hum. The TRS connection stopped all that.

    -Danny 

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