Some additional info on copyrights

While browsing a few publisher's web sites I found this and remembered that a few folks here from time to time have asked about this topic. I have replied and generally advise people NOT to copyright a song, because that is what I was told by a very reputable and large Film & TV library owner who has signed a number of my songs.   

Here is a different publisher (from Nashville TN ) also saying the same thing...and discussing briefly using a computer to create your music.....and not to worry about the LOC copyright as all the files are date stamped by the computer.

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The business side of publishing isn’t difficult, but it can be complicated because we don’t have everyday models to compare it to ~ nothing to say ‘it looks like so & so’ ~ and there are lots and lots of different contracts and licenses. Here are some basic pointers & MUST DO’S:

Join a PRO (Performing Rights Organization) such as ASCAP, BMI, SESAC (whatever your country’s organization is called) as a writer member.

If you are signed with a publisher other than yourself, then this entity will take over from this point. If you act as your own publisher, then you eventually need to establish a publishing company. The rules for each PRO are slightly different from one another but member services personnel will walk you through the process. Once you have a publishing entity, then register your songs. This can be done online but you will need your co-writer’s publishing information. This is a great reason to keep good records for every song you write.

Copyrighting your songs: When writer’s send ‘copyrighted’ songs for potential publishing opportunities, it’s a deterrent for the publisher. If you have copyrighted your songs, then you shouldn’t be pitching them to publishers ~ it’s costly to you, jams up the Library of Congress with unnecessary requests, and slows the process for songs that need to be registered with the LOC because they are out in the market place (in the form of cuts). If a publisher signs a copyrighted song, they have to undo & redo the copyright, as it is no longer valid. This creates extra paperwork, takes valuable time and is costly. Don’t take my word; do some research and ask others who are ‘in the know’. Asking questions, no matter how uninformed it may make you seem, is always the best way to go. It’s better to seem temporarily stupid by asking than remaining stupid by not….. Technically speaking, if you use a computer, your songs have a date stamp, so you can prove when you wrote it, but here are some tips for good record keeping:
a) make a spreadsheet with the following information: Song Title; DOC (Date of Creation); Co-writers names, PRO & publishing information; etc.
b) make a file on your computer for your songs – within this file you should have the following: a mp3 of the original work tape, an mp3 of the demo (if it’s demoed), a lyric sheet (containing Song Title, Writers names & PRO’s, DOC & any publishing info); a song information sheet.
c) buy an extra Hard Drive to keep in another location (in case of fire or other disaster) and backup weekly or monthly.

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So there you have it.... another publisher saying the same basic thing...... essentially, don't worry that someone is going to steal your song and you will be out in the cold and have no way to prove that you own it..... 

thought you might like to know this  

post edited by Guitarhacker - 2012/10/17 13:36:11

Time stamps aren't set in stone, though. They can be changed. Hard drives can crash or get stolen. So the more documentation you can save in various formats the better I guess.
 
 
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I'm curious (and maybe this would be more appropriate as a separate thread) what the pros and cons are of joining a PRO.  Are you limited if you join ASCAP?  Is BMI better?  What's SESEC?  Etc.

So... Join the Pro, but DON'T copywrite? The Pro to recoup performance rights when/if it is performed by someone else? And then send to publishers who WILL copywrite? Or have I got it backwards again?? I swear, it looks so simple on paper, but every time I think about it, I get a headache.  And I'm a smart cookie.  So it makes me MAD. LOL!

I ask because just the language itself is confusing.  I've been looking at this on and off for awhile, as you know, because you've so nicely answered question in the past.  I'd rather ask my friend a stupid question than a publishing company who would rather take me for a ride.  ;)

At this point in time, having sold virtually no songs in my entire 35 years of playing and writing, I'm happy to have them all downloaded, stolen, bitorrented, hacked, remixed and rehashed as acid-house-be-bop-trance-redneck-reggae-punka-billy dance floor hits.

I could care less I couldn't.

Oi new oi shud of sed dat roight.

(enter Straummy) 

Certainly not, what kind of girl do you think I am?


(she cried, waving her wooden leg...more in hope than anger..)

bapu

julibee


a publishing company who would rather take me for a ride.  ;)

Mebee it's a nice car though?

If you've been in one booze limo, you've been in them all, ya?

julibee


So... Join the Pro, but DON'T copywrite? The Pro to recoup performance rights when/if it is performed by someone else? And then send to publishers who WILL copywrite? Or have I got it backwards again?? I swear, it looks so simple on paper, but every time I think about it, I get a headache.  And I'm a smart cookie.  So it makes me MAD. LOL!

I ask because just the language itself is confusing.  I've been looking at this on and off for awhile, as you know, because you've so nicely answered question in the past.  I'd rather ask my friend a stupid question than a publishing company who would rather take me for a ride.  ;)

Don't copyright IF you are planning to have a publisher handle/publish the song. If it's going on someone else's CD...let the publisher copyright it. 


When you sign it to them they own it and they will obtain the copyright and list you as the writer. 


Yeah...the PRO collects the performance money. They pay the publisher and they pay you. according to the split indicated in the PRO registry for THAT song. The song gets registered by ONE person with ONE PRO no matter how many writers and how many PRO's are representing those writers. On the form you fill out, there is a place for ALL the writers to be listed AND which PRO they are affiliated with and their CAE/IPI number.  


everyone who is a writer needs to discuss and decide who registers the song. you do not want the confusion and held up payments over double registration of the same song at the same or different PRO's. Whoever registers it needs to know everyone else's CAE/IPI and get copies to them of the print out. 


If you license a cover from HFA..... Harry Fox Agency will keep their profit and send the balance to the publisher who splits it after their overhead and they send you the net 50% or whatever you agreed to in the contract. 


I hope that's helpful and clear.

That is pure BS Herb. Copyrighting a song, lyric, poem, peice of literary work does not present any obstacle to a publisher or Performing Rights Organization. Nor does it intefere with the copyright holders power or ability to assign rights to any organization, individual or publishing business, including record labels. If a publisher is not willing to sign a transfer of rights contract with specific terms and conditions with a author who is the copyright holder of their own work, they are not worth doing business with. In the event the publisher can't make good with their end of the deal, having your own copyright insures that you retain possession and ownership of your work. If you sign away the rights, the publisher can transfer ownership by selling ownership or letting out specific rights without your consent or approval to whom ever they wish. Suddenly you're doing business with an unknown entity. Publishers release that kind of crape to convince people to sign over the rights. You and a perspective publisher can draw up any contract that is mutually agreeable with any variation of rights and permissions.

Craig: it sure does interfere. If you register it in your name, the publisher has to go through the paperwork process (remember, they are dealing with a US government entity here) to change the copyright from your personal name to their business name. Most are willing to do it but it does make for extra work and if this is happening a few hundred times a week at the LOC that is a bunch of time.

 
Who's going to report it to the Library of Congress? The author , who just signed a contract with the publisher? You as the author don't have to reassign your copyright via the Library of Congress at that point. It's held in the conditions of the contract with the publisher. Your personal business once copyright has been established is not the business of the copyright office unless you are filing a complaint of infringement.

if the publisher wants your song and you are willing to allow the publisher to have full or partial copyright to your song (which I agree with you that is usually necessary if you want the publisher to promote your song), then it is nothing more than a hassle to them to get it changed at the copyright office.  I'm sorry that's a hassle to them, but that's ALL it is.  that does NOT make it wrong for you to have it registered!

if a publishing company believes in your material then they will get the copyright changed with your permission.  just because they would RATHER it not be copyrighted yet doesn't mean that it's something to be avoided.

I cannot be convinced that it is wrong to register my songs with the copyright office by these arguments you are presenting by sourcing quotes from publishing companies.  there are NO publishing companies currently who are out for my best interest.  I am out for my best interest and until I am even considered by a publishing company then there's no good reason for me not to register my copyrighted material.  even then, if they want the material, they will file an ammendment with the copyright office to change full or partial ownership on my behalf with my permission.

I'm still working on making anything that would be copyright-able in the first place...

(Maybe I should change to copylefts?)

Herb - I am simply trying to state that "your way of doing it" as you call it is not necessarily correct for everyone, yet when you post information as you have, you often make the statements as if your way is "the correct way" for everyone.  What your recommendation is on this page is that you recommend people do not register their copyrighted songs with the copyright office because you have been told that by publishing companies and you believe them.  that's your perogative, but don't make the recommendation for others to follow your beliefs without getting all the information for their situation.

Copyright is good, but in reality.... as far as someone stealing your songs? Give me a freaking break... anyone who has ever tried to pitch songs knows just how hard it is to try to get someone to even listen to your song for 15 seconds.....let alone steal it. No body's out there stealing songs and getting big artists to sing them and making millions. If it makes you feel better , copyright those songs. 

first of all, I personally haven't said anything about worrying that my work would be stolen.  If you say that I have, you'll need to find that and show me, and I don't really appreciate the condescending attitude there and the implications you're making.

HOWEVER, I recommend to ANYONE who creates a song and distributes it (for free or for sale) to copyright the material to protect it.  when you create your own CD or stream your material then YOU are your own publishing company and YOU are responsible for all aspects of that material.  copyright registration is simply part of that process.

as we have established, it CAN be transferred to a publishing company IF a publishing company desires to represent you and you wish for that company to represent you.

I have stated that this is how I do things. It is an accepted and recommended way to work with publishers. If you are not trying to get your songs into the commercial market, none of this applies anyway. I never said that this is how everyone should work.

no, you haven't said this is how everyone should work, but you fail to "recommend" any other way and you constantly state that "your way" is "the way it's done" in the music business. 

do I agree that it is an acceptable way to do it?  yes.  is it what everyone should do? NO.  As I said above; if you are posting your original songs on the internet for streaming or download OR if you are creating a CD for distribution then YOU are being the publishing company for yourself and you should protect your works by registering your copyright until such time that you decide a different publishing company could better represent your interests.  At that time the publishing company can transfer part or all of your copyright for representation (yes, partial copyright is a viable and available contract).

Y'all are making what was a simple suggestion, with a valid reason, into a huge freaking issue, which it is not. 

I think it takes more than one person to make something an "issue."  I disagree with you on this subject.  I have made that clear every time you post your recommendation for people not to register their copyrighted material.   If you can't handle the disagreement then don't post your recommendation.  I don't have any problem posting my recommendation which is in opposition of yours.

It's Simple.... if you copyright a song and a publisher wants it, they will sign it, they will transfer it regardless of the hassle, and you don't keep any of the ownership. None, nada, zip. Your only remaining claim on the song is that you have writer's credits for writing it and you will be acknowledged as such, and you are entitled to a net percentage of the income produced according to the original single song contract you signed. That is it. You have no say in how that song is used commercially from the day you sign it, till forever... it's gone from your control.

You'll have to prove that.  this is from your mouth only and I happen to know you're not a music lawyer.  There is information available if you look for it which is contradictory to that.
Where are your references for this information? 

Here's one source which contradicts that information:
http://www.allmusicindustrycontacts.com/music-publisher.htm

Not necessarily saying that this website is the full authority, but that's one source which is saying the 50/50 copyright with the publishers is a viable contract as well as 100% is a viable contract  to the publishing company.  It's not as "cut and dried" as you make it seem.  It depends on the contract.

If you have information from a music industry lawyer which states otherwise or have other proof I'll be glad to look at it and I am open to changing my mind IF you give me something other than what you've learned from publishing company (which I think you met at a Taxi conference - I don't trust Taxi as a viable resource either - I've met one of the founders and I wouldn't trust him with 50 cents).

but you yourself have said that the typical contract between a songwriter and a publisher gives 50% of the royalties to the publisher and 50% to the songwriter.  doesn't it make sense that in that case the copyright would need to be 50/50?  that's one of the options mentioned on that website I posted.  it also states that it depends on how much "pull" you have - completely understandable.  "nobodies" like most of us would likely not get that deal - at least not at first.  we'd likely have to give 100% for the first contract.  but that is not the only option as you have stated.

You do not amend a copyright. You can however file a new one and replace it, which is what the publisher will do for you, assuming you have filed a valid LOC copyright to begin with.  Like a deed to a house, the new one replaces the old and  refers back to the previous one by registration number, and  it  makes the previous one null.

when I said "ammend" I misspoke.  but you don't exactly file a new copyright to replace the old one, either.  technically what you do is transfer the copyright in full or in part to your representative.
ref:  http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-assignment.html#transferable

I never said it was wrong to register your songs with the LOC. If you want to do that, spend the money and sleep well at night and you have my blessing. 

Herb I am not trying to make you mad over this disagreement, but this statement sounds a little too condescending to me.  and technically yes, you have recommended here in this page and several times before that we shouldn't register our copyrights.  maybe you didn't say it was "wrong" to do so, but your entire recommendation and posts on this subject are arguments against doing so - so what's the difference?

I am not trying to fight with you Herb, I am simply trying to make sure that people who read this don't just take your word for it without researching all of the information available.  I don't trust information propogated from a publishing company without representation by a music business lawyer.  no one else should either.

for research - I suggest that anyone who wants to know if they should register their copyrights to start here:
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

there is a LOT of great information on that website. 

Publishing a song or literary work that the author holds copyright to is no more difficult than turning over the copyright to the publisher. The new copyright a publisher would apply for from an existing copyright would have to be accompanied by the agreement-contract entered into by both parties. It would be signed by both parties. There is a copyright form especially for this. You don't even have to transfer copyright to allow a publisher to make and distribute copies of a work. One simple contract with all the conditions and stipulations in place, signed by both parties is all that's required. Specific rights contracts for musical works are signed all the time for limited use in films etc.
The contracts for rights transfer and limited use rights release are not much different. We're talking a paragraph or two. I'd draw you one up as an example. One line on one contract will say author__________, one line on the other contract will say author-copyright owner______.