Helpful ReplySome people hate 440 Hz

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Jarsve
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2017/11/11 16:37:03 (permalink)

Some people hate 440 Hz

If you get a client that want his recordings to be in 432 Hz or something else. What do you do? There is only a few synths in Native Instruments Komplete that can be tuned.
 
I dont want this to be a discussion if those are crazy or that 440 Hz can kill you. But we work for the people and want them to be happy.
post edited by Jarsve - 2017/11/11 17:07:02

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Jarsve
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/11 16:56:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pentimentosound 2017/11/11 18:16:30
Here is a video of the phenomen
 


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bitflipper
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/11 17:48:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Jarsve 2017/11/11 19:47:23
All Kontakt instruments can be tuned. Hold the SHIFT key down while turning the Tune knob to get fine adjustments. Looks like 440 to 432 would be somewhere around -0.2, or 20 cents (would they really be able to tell if it was 431.5 Hz?). I imagine there may be a free oscilloscope plugin out there that'll give you a precise frequency reading, but SPAN would probably get close enough.
 
Whatever you end up doing, just make sure you charge them extra for your efforts. Put it on the invoice as a "Gullibility Tax" surcharge.


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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/11 17:56:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Jarsve 2017/11/11 19:53:15
GVST GTune and MeldaProduction MTuner can be set to A=432.
TC Electronic Polytune does not go that low.
I am sure there are other tuners that do though.
 
Would seem a setup fee would be in order.
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/11 19:32:41 (permalink)
Because 440 is the standard, and some things are a PITA to tune otherwise, I typically add the steps of bringing up imported material to 440, then dropping it back to "whatever" on export. The convenience of working in the standard easily offsets those steps, but depending on how files are shared this unto itself can get convoluted. Adjusting a printed audio track up/down in pitch is far simpler than verifying synth setups in the project, so exporting stems and using a utility to batch convert becomes easiest for me.
 
The "whatever" is because some things are detuned to values that don't even hit a whole number (good luck getting many synths to detune by x number of cents).

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Jarsve
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/11 19:51:37 (permalink)
Thanks guys. But some people dont want to listen to 440 Hz so you have to start the project in 432 Hz. They think that listening to music in 440 Hz is dangerous. Its easy to laugh at it, but for them its really imorprtant and then they need respect. At least so they come back for more work. lol.
 

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Beepster
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/12 00:04:36 (permalink)
Hi, Oyvind. How are ya? Glad to hear you're getting some clients.
 
I'd check out what bitflipper said if you are using Kontakt exclusively (I don't know if that works because I don't own it but bit's a smart dude).
 
However if I were in a predicament such as that, and since many synths do NOT have fine tuning here is what I would do based on all my wacky experiments using the minimal stuff I have/know how to use.
 
Reaper has a "Varispeed" fader that will adjust tempo and pitch. I'd load a stereo mixdown of the backer tracks (obviously something mixed to your personal taste to ease writing/tracking) into Reaper then adjust the varispeed fader until I got the backer tracks up to (or down to) A 440hz. Export that then bring it into SONAR (or whatever DAW/sequencer I was using) and do my writing/tracking.
 
Once I'm done I'd take those files and import them into the original Reaper project then set the varispeed fader back to 0.0 then bounce/export the newly pitch/time stretched tracks.
 
If done correctly (with the correct settings in Reaper) it should be fine. Of course the less stretching the better so if you are closer to a whole semitone down then do your varispeed maneuver to match the nearest semitone and then you can just set your keyboard/hardware up or down by the appropriate amount of semitones (which means less stretching in Reaper).
 
I am currently working off beds that were recorded at A445 (but the guits/bass tuned down a semitone) so I've set Guitar Rig's tuner to 445 and am just tracking it all (and will release it all) as is. I think it might add a little bit of extra uniqueness/quirkiness to the tracks. However there are absolutely no synths or other wackiness going onto the tracks so I don't have to worry about the situation you describe.
 
Cheers!
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batsbrew
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/12 00:06:20 (permalink)
MAN, I've been tuning down a full half step for about......32 years!
LOL
 
i don't think i care about 432

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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/12 00:19:32 (permalink)
batsbrew
MAN, I've been tuning down a full half step for about......32 years!
LOL
 
i don't think i care about 432




That was my old band's tuning because it was a little crunchier/heavier without losing string tension (I use .11's so it works out nicely) but because we generally just tuned to each other for practices/gigs we'd drift until I'd grab everybody's axes and lock them back in.
 
I apparently forgot to tune everyone up before we tracked (which I used to get really annoyed at myself about but now I've deluded myself into thinking the non standard tuning is teh coolz).
 
I also used to tune down a semitone for my solo acoustic stuff (and anything else where I sang where I could get away with it) so I could get that one extra note in the upper register before I started cracking/falsettoing.
 
Of course once I started working with fixed instrument players (most notably accordian) I'd have to go full on 440... otherwise I'd be being a REAL jerkbag to my poor fixed instrument compatriates (well... more so than usual).
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/12 01:10:06 (permalink)
This is the kind of thing I don't miss about running a commercial studio.

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batsbrew
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/12 19:31:44 (permalink)
WITH MODERN TUNERS...
it's dead easy to tune everything, to anything.

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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/12 20:05:54 (permalink)
batsbrew
WITH MODERN TUNERS...
it's dead easy to tune everything, to anything.




Except fixed pitch instruments of course.
 
Even my old TU-2 (love that thing) I can scootch things up or down if I want but since I'm pretty much exclusively working in the box these days I just use GR5's tuner which is quite useful. Lots of useful goodies in that program... like the tape deck thingie which is great for slowing down solos I'm trying to learn.
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/12 20:10:25 (permalink)
Oh and when I was working with that accordian player I'd tune to her instead of to a tuner because of course the physical reeds in a squeezebox tend to have very slight deviations from perfect 440. Our banjo/mando/master of all things stringed used a clip on tuner though and although likely imperceptable to most people I always found it was just EVER so slightly off from the accordian (and thus me being tuned to the accordian). It sounded kind of organic/cool that way though.
 
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jamesg1213
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/12 21:19:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby synkrotron 2017/11/13 07:47:22
batsbrew
WITH MODERN TUNERS...
it's dead easy to tune everything, to anything.


 
 ...unless you're recording a flute..or a piano..or a saxophone...or a...etc...

 
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/13 01:26:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/11/13 16:58:36
I an tempted to create an app that displays 440 tuning as 432 just to ease the ninds of asshats
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/13 14:39:33 (permalink)
jamesg1213
batsbrew
WITH MODERN TUNERS...
it's dead easy to tune everything, to anything.


 ...unless you're recording a flute..or a piano..or a saxophone...or a...etc...



An acoustic piano is a pain, but flute or sax... or any woodwind/brass instrument? They are not fixed - they have a lot of variance for tuning. 

Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
 

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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/13 15:13:37 (permalink)
codamedia
 
 
An acoustic piano is a pain, but flute or sax... or any woodwind/brass instrument? They are not fixed - they have a lot of variance for tuning. 




 
i think it should go without saying,
that we are talking in particular, about electric stringed instruments,
and to a large degree, any synth.
 
if a fixed pitch instrument like oboe or tenor sax is being recorded, you gotta do what you gotta do.
 
goes without saying.
 
any wind instrument has a bit of drift of pitch available, but not entire half steps.

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tlw
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/13 17:26:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Beepster 2017/11/13 17:42:29
Beepster
Oh and when I was working with that accordian player I'd tune to her instead of to a tuner because of course the physical reeds in a squeezebox tend to have very slight deviations from perfect 440.


In a "2 voice tremolo" accordion the second bank of reeds that produces the tremolo is tuned a bit sharp, the exact amount depending on how "wet" the instrument is tuned. The tuning difference between the pairs of reeds also varies with the pitch of the note, the idea being to keep the rate of the tremolo constant. Which doesn't happen if the reeds are all tuned sharp by a fixed number of cents or Hz. Three voice tremolos tend to be more pitch-accurate because the flatter reed bank kind of cancels out the sharper one. Though they still "wobble".

Hohner once produced one model of melodeon/button accordion that had the tremolo reeds tuned slightly flat. For whatever reason, while humans find the slight sharpness of conventional accordion tunings quite acceptable against other instruments, the "flat tremolo" just sounded wrong. Really wrong.

Temperature and the amount of use/wear on the reeds can make a difference as well. To complicate things further the biggest producer of reeds and instruments is Italy, where a standard of A=442.4Hz can still sometimes be found.

Then you have the Cajun accordian tuning which is intended to make a diatonic instrument in the key of C sound better when played in C and G in a similar way to how blues harmonica "just" and "compromised" tunings work.

You can go mad trying to find the theoretically "correct" pitch to tune against when playing alongside some fixed pitch instruments. The best solution is to stop aiming for mathematical perfection and settle for things sounding good instead.

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Beepster
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/13 17:45:15 (permalink)
@tlw...
 
That was extremely interesting and informative... as always. I hope you are well, Mr. tlw. I might have more time (and attention span) to hang here in the Techniques forum now that I've FINALLY corrected the beds for the album I'm working on. That... was a bit of a slog (to put it mildly). lol
 
Cheers.
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/13 19:37:13 (permalink)
Jarsve
They think that listening to music in 440 Hz is dangerous. Its easy to laugh at it, but for them its really imorprtant and then they need respect. At least so they come back for more work. lol.

 
You could try convincing them that A=415 (used by some orchestras that specialise in Baroque material) is even "safer". Then just transpose your A=440 stuff down a semitone and job done. Even better, get them to use A=415.4 which is even closer to a semitone down transposition.
 
As for them needing respect.... about as much as a serious flat-farther is worth. Accommodating them to keep them as happy clients is, of course, a different matter.
 

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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/14 23:38:00 (permalink)
batsbrew
codamedia
An acoustic piano is a pain, but flute or sax... or any woodwind/brass instrument? They are not fixed - they have a lot of variance for tuning. 


i think it should go without saying,
that we are talking in particular, about electric stringed instruments,
and to a large degree, any synth.
 



i don't assume anything 
 
The comment I quoted from "jamesg1213" looked like he was referencing the acoustic versions... I left your quote in for context. Sorry if I stepped out of line! 
 

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John T
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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/16 14:13:01 (permalink)
I think in terms of managing a session, this is really the same as wanting exotic instrumentation. Which is to say, either the client can sort it out - and if they're seriously committed to 432, why haven't they? - or I can sort it out for an additional charge, with their understanding that the budget will constrain what can be achieved.
 
Zooming out from there, I think wacky requests like this are a bit of a red flag. If I had a band come in and say "we've got all our gear sorted out so we can play everything in 432", then great, good for them. If I had a band come in saying "we neither do this in rehearsal nor know how to do it, but it's a big requirement for this recording", then I know I'm dealing with whimsical people who lack focus, and I probably want to run away from this project if I can afford to.

Option three is a client who says "we neither do this in rehearsal nor know how to do it, but we can pay whatever it costs, with half up-front", but I don't think that client exists.

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Re: Some people hate 440 Hz 2017/11/16 20:59:04 (permalink)
That's because there's a whole elaborate story (not saying it's not true) going through the conspiracy world and through the new age world. The new agers say it has healing properties and the conspiracy guys say it's being withheld from us.
 
I read this whole thing recently which is actually a pretty good take on the history of how and why the change occurred: The Suppression of the Solfeggio Frequencies. But yeah, you can definitely retune the Kontakt synths, but there's no exact presets either, meaning you'll have to do some math to translate it into cents. At this point I'm willing to bet there are a good number of plugins with this option, but I doubt they're as good and I doubt your client is going to be willing to buy you some new ones.

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