jshep0102
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Some things never change
I got up to Windows 10 speed today, just humming along. Stayed up late to play catch up. Did a lot of good work. Went about 45 minutes without saving. BAM - doing a fader ride, I get the hazy white screen of screwed again. Will Sonar/Windows EVER develop a way to be able to retrieve a project when this happens? I'd pay dearly for it. The best work I did was in the last 45 minutes. Mix was really dialing in, and now I couldn't guess what I did to make it happen again. Well fed up of it.
post edited by jshep0102 - 2015/12/06 17:40:22
SHEP-ASRock Z97 Pro4 - i7 4790K 4.0ghz - 16 GB DDR3 - Windows 10 Home - Apollo Twin USB Duo - UAD2 Duo - Digimax FS - Focal CMS50 - Raven MTi2 - Slate VMS 1 - Bluebird - Yamaha MOXF8 - Axe Fx Ultra - SPLAT 2017.2
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mudgel
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 06:41:30
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There is a way to retrieve a project when this happens but it requires doing incremental saves either by using auto save or manually saving. I wouldn't go 4 or 5 minutes without saving. Why on earth would you go 45 minutes without saving. Sorry but going Ctrl + S isn't very hard to do.
If you don't value your efforts enough to save them regularly then I'm sure nothing I can say or do will make you develop those good habits. No point in blaming Sonar or Windows for that matter. You had 45 minutes to save your work 10 or more times. Sorry I'm not sympathetic. The important thing is for you to learn the lesson to save your work. Regularly and in smal. Increments.
I MUST PRESS Ctrl + S regularly.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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bitflipper
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 12:18:00
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/12/06 16:27:05
Every time I make some change that results in an "ooh, I like that!" moment, CTL-S is an automatic reflex. Same is true when I'm creating a long and detailed Word document or Excel spreadsheet.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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John T
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 12:25:53
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/12/06 16:27:30
I've talked about this before on here, but there's no good reason to have auto-save switched off. Whenever you talk to people about why they do have it switched off, they (mostly) have one of two reasons, both of which are based on a misapprehension: 1/ I don't want recording / playback interrupted by a save This doesn't happen. Sonar will never auto save during recording or playback, no matter what the auto-save settings. Interestingly, though, you can manually save during playback, and I've never had that cause any issues. 2/ I don't want Auto-Save to overwrite my project. It doesn't. It creates a new file called "auto-save of xxxxxxxx.cwp". And you can generally ignore these files unless you need to recover after a crash. There is a third reason not to use auto-save which is a good one. On very complex projects, the save can get slow enough to be a bit of an interruption to working. But if you're not having that problem, there's no other reason not to have it switched on. So I think in answer to the OP's question: "Will Sonar/Windows EVER develop a way to be able to retrieve a project when this happens?", I'd say Sonar has developed a way, and it's Auto-Save. It's not perfect, but on the other hand, I haven't lost more than five minutes' work in literally years. I think it's almost a decade since this was last an issue for me.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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jshep0102
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 15:54:36
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I certainly appreciate the ideas, and to an extent the lashing. The thing is, I NEVER remember to do that. When I work, my focus has always been so high on it that it never crosses my mind. I'm the same way at my other job. I have to do paperwork on my own time because the job is all my brain can see. The thing about it is, I've worked 6 hours without an issue. If this thing was consistently screwing my work to death, I'd probably be 100% on it. But, it lulls you into the false sense of security. After all these years of these products being marketed, imo one should be able to work at will. I was working fast and furious on a emergency basis for a cd submittal, so I kinda needed PC fear to not be an issue. But it's always an issue. Thanks for a good explanation, John T. I'm going in right now to set up auto-save. I had it on years ago, but it scared the crap out of me every time it does it, watching the screen do something I didn't do. Gonna have to get used to it, but will be worth it I guess. While doing that, it would make sense to follow Craig's latest backup tip of the week at the same time, as this will surely take more drive space than before. Thanks for chiming in gents. Peace
SHEP-ASRock Z97 Pro4 - i7 4790K 4.0ghz - 16 GB DDR3 - Windows 10 Home - Apollo Twin USB Duo - UAD2 Duo - Digimax FS - Focal CMS50 - Raven MTi2 - Slate VMS 1 - Bluebird - Yamaha MOXF8 - Axe Fx Ultra - SPLAT 2017.2
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FastBikerBoy
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 15:59:06
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John T I've talked about this before on here, but there's no good reason to have auto-save switched off. Whenever you talk to people about why they do have it switched off, they (mostly) have one of two reasons, both of which are based on a misapprehension: 1/ I don't want recording / playback interrupted by a save This doesn't happen. Sonar will never auto save during recording or playback, no matter what the auto-save settings. Interestingly, though, you can manually save during playback, and I've never had that cause any issues. 2/ I don't want Auto-Save to overwrite my project. It doesn't. It creates a new file called "auto-save of xxxxxxxx.cwp". And you can generally ignore these files unless you need to recover after a crash. There is a third reason not to use auto-save which is a good one. On very complex projects, the save can get slow enough to be a bit of an interruption to working. But if you're not having that problem, there's no other reason not to have it switched on. So I think in answer to the OP's question: "Will Sonar/Windows EVER develop a way to be able to retrieve a project when this happens?", I'd say Sonar has developed a way, and it's Auto-Save. It's not perfect, but on the other hand, I haven't lost more than five minutes' work in literally years. I think it's almost a decade since this was last an issue for me.
Exactly this ^^^^
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John T
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 16:16:07
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jshep0102 After all these years of these products being marketed, imo one should be able to work at will. I was working fast and furious on a emergency basis for a cd submittal, so I kinda needed PC fear to not be an issue. But it's always an issue.
Well, the thing is, there's really only one answer, and that's some form of auto-save. I suppose ideally, it would be a little more invisible to the user, but the bottom line is that the file needs saving periodically, whether that's by the user or automatically. That's just how computers are.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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tlw
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 16:27:19
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The two rules of data.
Anything not saved does not exist. It is a temporary illusion that can disappear in a millisecond.
Anything saved on only one medium and not backed up onto at least one other different drive (not partition on the same drive but an entirely different drive) exits but only temporarily. It is here today but may not be here tomorrow.
Years ago I worked with someone who one morning came into the office in a frantic state of mind. Her MA thesis was due in next week and her laptop's drive which contained the thesis and all her notes and data had just failed, to the extent BIOS didn't recognise it.
She could, of course, have simply reloaded her most recent backup and continued working on her old desktop PC. But there weren't any backups because, as she explained, she was just "far too busy" and "didn't have the time to waste" setting up automatic backups or even just copying stuff to an external drive.
So she sent a panicked email to her MA supervisor and packed the laptop off to the manufacturer to see if things could be fixed. The manufacturer lost the computer.....
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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mudgel
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 18:00:43
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The reason for my strong words (please don't take them personally) is that it takes a significant change in thinking to change an entrenched behaviour. Believe me, I know from personal experience.
But all the help a program can offer, is no help if the feature is not used. As John T said there are some misconceptions about AutoSave and sometimes mis-Information is even more difficult to over turn than teaching folks about a feature in the first place.. I hope your experience teaches you to modify your creative process to include the necessary save and backup of your work. All the best.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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bapu
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 18:18:01
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So the OP should change his title to Some people never change ??
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jshep0102
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 18:19:03
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Thanks mudgel. Ive seen you here plenty enough to know you have folks best interest at heart. I do save off to another drive when I save. I started doing the auto save today. I set it for 10 moves. Constantly slowing me down waiting. Still makes me jump when Im adjusting a plug or something, and it goes to work. Set it for 30, much preferred. 2 questions - does changing views or focus to a different track or say, PRV view count as a move? Kinda seems like it. Also, does auto save follow the same setup for save being used or is it only capable of doing it in a set way? Thanks!
post edited by jshep0102 - 2015/12/06 18:36:19
SHEP-ASRock Z97 Pro4 - i7 4790K 4.0ghz - 16 GB DDR3 - Windows 10 Home - Apollo Twin USB Duo - UAD2 Duo - Digimax FS - Focal CMS50 - Raven MTi2 - Slate VMS 1 - Bluebird - Yamaha MOXF8 - Axe Fx Ultra - SPLAT 2017.2
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John T
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 20:01:17
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Hmm, yeah. That's the drawback. It can be slow for certain kinds of projects. Cutting a long story short, what makes project files big - and therefore slow to save - is data density. So one thing is heavy editing of clips, creating lots of small clips. Another is MIDI data intensive projects, meaning lots of note date. I'm always doing lots of different kinds of work, and I've really started to notice the distinction. When I'm doing mixing of projects that have come to me all as WAV files, the auto-save is unnoticable. At the other extreme, when I'm working on editing audiobooks in 1-2 hour chunks, even with a single mono track, once you're at the level of editing breaths out, you're generating thousands upon thousands of clips, and the project files start to get big and slow to save. Projects with lots of midi data sit somewhere in the middle. It would be nice if the save process could become more optimal. I suspect this is a hard computer science problem rather than anything Sonar or Windows-specific though.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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John T
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 20:02:20
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As to your question, I've never quite understood how the "amount of moves" thing works. It certainly never works how I think it will :)
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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Cactus Music
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/06 20:21:17
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I've never lost anything to Sonar and normally I don't turn on auto save unless I'm working with a client or live band. Then it's easy to be busy and forget to save. On my own I'm like the rest and save after every worthwhile change has been made..End of day before I shut down I back up to a second drive. Hard drives are so cheap compaired to other gear. I still have every hard drive I ever owned minus a few that died. I even have a box of floppy disks!!!
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pharohoknaughty
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/07 14:47:13
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jshep0102 I certainly appreciate the ideas, and to an extent the lashing. The thing is, I NEVER remember to do that. When I work, my focus has always been so high on it that it never crosses my mind. I'm the same way at my other job. I have to do paperwork on my own time because the job is all my brain can see. The thing about it is, I've worked 6 hours without an issue. If this thing was consistently screwing my work to death, I'd probably be 100% on it. But, it lulls you into the false sense of security. After all these years of these products being marketed, imo one should be able to work at will. I was working fast and furious on a emergency basis for a cd submittal, so I kinda needed PC fear to not be an issue. But it's always an issue. Thanks for a good explanation, John T. I'm going in right now to set up auto-save. I had it on years ago, but it scared the crap out of me every time it does it, watching the screen do something I didn't do. Gonna have to get used to it, but will be worth it I guess. While doing that, it would make sense to follow Craig's latest backup tip of the week at the same time, as this will surely take more drive space than before. Thanks for chiming in gents. Peace
Wow sorry about your loss! Very familiar story. I have been re-installing everything on a new DAW. I use Sonar X3 Pro. Re-installed from scratch at least 30 programs including plugs and other utilities. I have about a week into this project so far and little things still keep cropping up. Thanks to this thread I went and checked the settings for auto-save. The default is to not have it turned on!!! Needless to say I turned it on. I think Cake should re-consider and make the default to auto save. Thanks for the alert.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/07 14:52:04
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Most of us have learned through painful scar tissue, to make SURE that we back up quite frequently. I too am in the camp of manual saving, and like bitflipper, I do it both before and after any significant edit or operation in a project, as well as for any AHA moments. I also make sure that any project where I have done a single edit in the current session, and it is open - and I step away, even just to run out for lunch, that I close the session and save the project folder to an external backup drive, so that if the hard drive should fail while I am at lunch, I still have the work saved off to somewhere I can recover it from. I spent over 20 years in mainframe technical support, and we learned VERY early into it all to always make sure you have backups, both local and offsite, of any data that is critical, PERIOD. We actually had a case where we had a major power failure that also took out the backup power systems, and the instant heat melted down some of the mainframe's solder, and needless to say it took lots of stuff with it. Well, turns out a set of the backup tapes were physically damaged too, so we turned to our offsite backups and were able to piece things together from a week prior, and then apply all logged transactions in a forward recovery operation to get all but the data that was literally in-flight at the moment the power had gotten cut. That data would have been lost forever, were it not for redundant backups. Save, Save, Save, Save, Save, Save, Save. It IS a mindset. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Some things never change
2015/12/07 16:34:55
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I have "save" and "save as" as two of the nine buttons in the Custom Module in the Control Bar. Easy as pie to click on at any time. Grum.
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