Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights?

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AndyW
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2008/10/25 17:40:59 (permalink)

Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights?

Imagine replacing "Gamers" with "Software Users" and "games" with "software"in the porposed bill of rights below...

http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/the-gamers-bill-rights

Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will adequately play on that computer.
Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their express consent.
Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

For those who don't know, Brad Wardell is a kind of maverick in the gaming industry and runs Stardock Software. Their games have minimal copy protection and sell well, challenging the DRM establishment. Kinda like Cakewalk IMO.

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AndyW

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    agincourtdb
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 17:46:34 (permalink)
    Most of that is reasonable.

    But: meaningful updates to games? What does that mean? You buy the game based on what it contains at the time, not on the assumption content will be added later. And if 'in a finished state' is code for, 'having no bugs', (which IMO it usually is....) good luck with that. ;-)


    #2
    AndyW
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 17:55:21 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: agincourtdb

    Most of that is reasonable.

    But: meaningful updates to games? What does that mean? You buy the game based on what it contains at the time, not on the assumption content will be added later. And if 'in a finished state' is code for, 'having no bugs', (which IMO it usually is....) good luck with that. ;-)


    He actually addresses that in the latest "Stardock Customer Report" where he discusses a revision that is being worked on with other publishers:

    "We also clarified the issue about “games being released in a finished state”. PC games are quite occasionally released with defects that materially affect the game experience (i.e. constantly crashing, missing content, etc.). All PC games will have problems on some percentage of users. Materially affecting the game experience means it is a problem that occurs on the majority of user machines and prevents the user from getting the full experience out of the game.

    The "interim" revision is:

    1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that are incompatible or do not function at a reasonable level of performance for a full refund within a reasonable amount of time.
    2. Gamers shall have the right that games they purchase shall function as designed without defects that would materially affect the player experience.
    3. Gamers shall have the right that games will receive updates that address minor defects as well as improves game play based on player feedback within reason.
    4. Gamers shall have the right to have their games not require a third-party download manager installed in order for the game to function.
    5. Gamers shall have the right to have their games perform adequately if their hardware meets the posted minimum requirements.
    6. Gamers shall have the right not to have any of their games install hidden drivers.
    7. Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest version of the games they purchase.
    8. Gamers have the right to use their games without being inconvenienced due to copy protection or digital rights management.
    9. Gamers shall have the right to play single player games without having to have an Internet connection.
    10. Gamers shall have the right to sell or transfer the ownership of a physical copy of a game they own to another person.
    post edited by AndyW - 2008/10/25 18:00:11

    Best,

    AndyW

    OBJECTS IN MIRROR ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR

    www.soundclick.com/andyw
    #3
    agincourtdb
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 18:02:22 (permalink)
    Are many games really released where there's a bug that affects the majority of users? I would be amazed. Can you give examples, enough to show there's an industry-wide problem with this kind of quality control?

    On your edit of the list: I think some of those are actually vaguer, and therefore worse. "Reasonable" is a dangerously imprecise word. So is 'inconvenience'.

    The second half of 3 is ridiculous. You want input, join the design team. 4; they'll just license and rebrand their own download manager, and frankly, when there's a d/l manager involved, I feel better, though I like to use my own on a link they provide. Maybe that's what they're getting at.

    Everything else is ok. I think 5,6, and 10 are absolutely vital, for all software.
    post edited by agincourtdb - 2008/10/25 18:12:12


    #4
    AndyW
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 18:06:48 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: agincourtdb

    Are many games really released where there's a bug that affects the majority of users? I would be amazed. Can you give examples, enough to show there's an industry-wide problem with this kind of quality control?


    Bioshock and STALKER are two big examples where a lot of people had serious problems with crashes, etc, etc. If you play a lot of games it is clear that for some publishers there is a "rush to market" issue... It is definitely a problem for the industry and is discussed in a fairly open manner.

    Best,

    AndyW

    OBJECTS IN MIRROR ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR

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    #5
    agincourtdb
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 18:11:16 (permalink)
    I have both of those, STALKER I didn't like (though it wasn't buggy), but Bioshock was maybe the best game I've ever played. Maybe I got in after the bugs were addressed, though: I had no stability issues whatsoever with either of them.


    #6
    AndyW
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 18:14:08 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: agincourtdb

    I have both of those, STALKER I didn't like (though it wasn't buggy), but Bioshock was maybe the best game I've ever played. Maybe I got in after the bugs were addressed, though: I had no stability issues whatsoever with either of them.


    Both of them are great games....initial releases were horrible(I experiences Bioshock first hand)...STALKER I didn't get until several patches down the line so it only had a couple of repeatable bugs.

    Best,

    AndyW

    OBJECTS IN MIRROR ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR

    www.soundclick.com/andyw
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    agincourtdb
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 18:17:05 (permalink)
    But what I'm saying is, were those bugs deleterious to 'a majority of users', and do a large percentage of games released have problems on that scale?


    #8
    AndyW
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 18:20:18 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: agincourtdb

    But what I'm saying is, were those bugs deleterious to 'a majority of users', and do a large percentage of games released have problems on that scale?


    I honestly don't know the percentages...

    Best,

    AndyW

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    #9
    agincourtdb
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 18:21:55 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: AndyW


    ORIGINAL: agincourtdb

    But what I'm saying is, were those bugs deleterious to 'a majority of users', and do a large percentage of games released have problems on that scale?


    I honestly don't know the percentages...


    Me either. Well, I think it's a good list, overall, and some of them are absolutely necessary.
    post edited by agincourtdb - 2008/10/25 18:31:01


    #10
    Fog
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 18:34:20 (permalink)
    I'll play devils advocate.

    1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that are incompatible or do not function at a reasonable level of performance for a full refund within a reasonable amount of time.

    sometimes that down to user error , not reading the minimum specs for a game is a prime example with say graphic cards /cpu.. games are normally dev'd for "mid range machines" at best when they are put out

    2. Gamers shall have the right that games they purchase shall function as designed without defects that would materially affect the player experience.
    how many games do you know that don't have patches made for them down the line?

    3. Gamers shall have the right that games will receive updates that address minor defects as well as improves game play based on player feedback within reason.
    depends what is classed as "minor" , too vague.

    4. Gamers shall have the right to have their games not require a third-party download manager installed in order for the game to function.
    well it's either that or registering a game, to stop none legit customers getting updates

    5. Gamers shall have the right to have their games perform adequately if their hardware meets the posted minimum requirements.
    if someone is going "solely" on minimum specs.. then again... perhaps they should bother to read the recommended spec, as much as although call of duty may run on an older machine it's s*** slow

    6. Gamers shall have the right not to have any of their games install hidden drivers.
    hidden drivers could be anything , ranging from protection schemes to making a controller work (e.g. I can use a convertor + a ps2 controller for playing Pro Evo soccer on the pc)

    7. Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest version of the games they purchase.
    well if the game is massive, say 2 dvd's with cut scenes etc.. download option wouldn't be viable due to the cost of bandwidth

    8. Gamers have the right to use their games without being inconvenienced due to copy protection or digital rights management.
    programmers / artists / musicians need to pay the bills , development costs are crazy compared to the 8 bit days and that's their way of protecting the investment

    9. Gamers shall have the right to play single player games without having to have an Internet connection.
    I haven't come across any games so far that require that, but I'm sure there are some.. but I'd say they are in the minority

    10. Gamers shall have the right to sell or transfer the ownership of a physical copy of a game they own to another person.
    well many game exchange shops are out there and most companies with sense will realise that once someone's completed a game they want to trade it in

    I'm guessing it's just for PR the company did it... e.g. like the games company over here that was giving away £20 of free petrol (gas)

    will I still be buying the call of duty coming soon.. for sure.... unless they start making s*** games.

    funny though, rockstar games (gta mainly) is one of the UK's best exports.. and things like Laura Croft etc.. although back in the day, the UK had a good industry... sure there was companies like epyx etc. but a lot of the top 10 games I liked are from Europe (mainly UK software houses)... Rare (or Ultimate - play the game originally) and Argonaut were both involved with Nintendo. It's a pity that the games industry has changed so much, for the worst I feel sometimes.

    the way I look at it, a lot of the older games going back 25 or so years, are playable.. and not just a 3d engine with different graphics bolted on
    post edited by Fog - 2008/10/25 18:44:40
    #11
    AndyW
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 18:57:47 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Fog

    I'll play devils advocate.


    OK.


    1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that are incompatible or do not function at a reasonable level of performance for a full refund within a reasonable amount of time.

    sometimes that down to user error , not reading the minimum specs for a game is a prime example with say graphic cards /cpu.. games are normally dev'd for "mid range machines" at best when they are put out


    It is clear this isn't about user error but actual problems.


    2. Gamers shall have the right that games they purchase shall function as designed without defects that would materially affect the player experience.
    how many games do you know that don't have patches made for them down the line?


    The issue is both abandonware and patches that don't really address issues.


    3. Gamers shall have the right that games will receive updates that address minor defects as well as improves game play based on player feedback within reason.
    depends what is classed as "minor" , too vague.


    Agreed.


    4. Gamers shall have the right to have their games not require a third-party download manager installed in order for the game to function.
    well it's either that or registering a game, to stop none legit customers getting updates


    Registering is fine.


    5. Gamers shall have the right to have their games perform adequately if their hardware meets the posted minimum requirements.
    if someone is going "solely" on minimum specs.. then again... perhaps they should bother to read the recommended spec, as much as although call of duty may run on an older machine it's s*** slow


    That's the point...the "recommended" is REALLY the "minimum"...but companies play fast and loose with these definitions to maximize sales to less savvy shoppers.


    6. Gamers shall have the right not to have any of their games install hidden drivers.
    hidden drivers could be anything , ranging from protection schemes to making a controller work (e.g. I can use a convertor + a ps2 controller for playing Pro Evo soccer on the pc)


    The is really addressing DRM.


    7. Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest version of the games they purchase.
    well if the game is massive, say 2 dvd's with cut scenes etc.. download option wouldn't be viable due to the cost of bandwidth


    true...but it a few years that won't be a bottleneck either.


    8. Gamers have the right to use their games without being inconvenienced due to copy protection or digital rights management.
    programmers / artists / musicians need to pay the bills , development costs are crazy compared to the 8 bit days and that's their way of protecting the investment


    You make the false assumption that DRM ensures legit users. Stardock's model has proven this wrong by example.


    9. Gamers shall have the right to play single player games without having to have an Internet connection.
    I haven't come across any games so far that require that, but I'm sure there are some.. but I'd say they are in the minority


    Bioshock, Mass Effect, Crysis, Far Cry 2, etc etc

    Best,

    AndyW

    OBJECTS IN MIRROR ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR

    www.soundclick.com/andyw
    #12
    Resonant Order
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    RE: Somewhat OT: Software Bill of Rights? 2008/10/25 21:09:32 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Fog

    8. Gamers have the right to use their games without being inconvenienced due to copy protection or digital rights management.
    programmers / artists / musicians need to pay the bills , development costs are crazy compared to the 8 bit days and that's their way of protecting the investment




    So you wouldn't mind if Sonar introduced a dongle?

    I don't think anyone has a problem with serials or even challenge response, but when your dealing with something like Securom that actually changes the way the kernel in windows works, then your moving into territory where companies should be sued. And there are forms of copy protection that even go beyond the invasion of Securom.


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