rogeriodec
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Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
Well, my music needs to start at 1:03:480, so my video has to start at the same time. - I already have VideoEngine flag set to 0 in your AUD.INI file (so I'm using DirectShow):
[Video] VideoEngine=0 But when play, Sonar becomes unstable, slow and the MP4 video doesn't appear. Or rather, it appears but several seconds after I stop. So, a mess. I tested it with several other formats and apparently the only format that works with start time is AVI. But in this case, a video of 107 Mb in MP4 becomes 2.7 Gb in AVI ... Does anyone have any solution for this?
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markyzno
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/16 09:47:47
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Use video editing software for ANY changes to video, including start time.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/16 10:07:45
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SONAR is not a video editor, it does audio for video. Note there are AVI formats that can take up less space (e.g., screen captures done with the TechSmith codec) but I don't know how well they get along with SONAR.
For video editing I highly recommend Sony Vegas. Even the lite versions are extremely capable, and due to its origins as a hard disk recorder designed to compete with Pro Tools, the interface is very comfortable for those used to DAWs. Also, it follows Windows conventions closely, so it works a lot like SONAR. It's a great program.
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rogeriodec
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/16 19:14:52
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Thanks but I did not say anywhere I wanted to edit a video.
What I'm understanding about your answers is that this is a known bug and the only solution is to edit the video adding a space ahead?
This is at least absurd.
Best would then removing from Sonar the option to change video start time, once and for all.
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Jimbo 88
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/16 19:48:47
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☄ Helpfulby Resonant Serpent 2015/06/17 10:03:42
I work with video in Sonar everyday (for 23 years now). I never bother with files and codecs. I load the video from my client into Vegas, put a :10 start up time, whether I have to add time ....or delete to start later... I always have a :10 second roll-up. I Create an AVI file...then go to work. I match my picture TimeCode in Sonar by imputing an Off-set in the Clock section of Preferences.
Saves me tons of time 'cause I don't fight the video issues. Sonar runs smooth, handles VSTs and mixing better than any DAW.
Not worth fighting the Video Codec thinggy.
Good luck!
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/16 20:08:59
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/06/17 00:41:21
rogeriodec
Thanks but I did not say anywhere I wanted to edit a video.
What I'm understanding about your answers is that this is a known bug and the only solution is to edit the video adding a space ahead?
This is at least absurd.
With MP4, you would indeed need to add your desired offset to the video's beginning. Note that Apple has still not released a 64-bit version of QuickTime for Windows (the most recent version for Windows is from October 2014, and installs in the x86 program folder). Best would then removing from Sonar the option to change video start time, once and for all.
Why? It works perfectly well with AVI and WMV files. It seems unfair to deny those who create AVI and WMV files the ability to move start times just because you can't do it with MP4 files. Unfortunately I get the feeling that if Apple was going to release a 64-bit version of QuickTime for Windows, they would have done so already. I'm not holding my breath. There are other issues as well with QuickTime files. The following is from SONAR's help file: QuickTime issues In order to import/export QuickTime files in SONAR, you must install both the filters AND QuickTime. The following are some other known QuickTime issues: * It is presently only possible to export QuickTime videos on a 32-bit system. This is a limitation of QuickTime, not SONAR. * QuickTime Import/Export requires version 6.5.1 or higher of the QuickTime Player to be installed. The QuickTime Player is not included with SONAR, but can be downloaded separately from Apple's web site (www.apple.com/quicktime/download/win.html). * Audio mixdown to QuickTime must be set to 16 bits stereo or mono, or the resulting export will create an unusable file or abort with an error. * Audio mixdown to QuickTime must be set to 48 KHz or less or the resulting export will create a file that plays back incorrectly. * When exporting to QuickTime, the frame rate of the QuickTime video compressor will default to “best possible”. Since not all movies in a SONAR video project correctly report their frame rate, the best practice is manually enter the desired frame rate. This is done in the video settings of the QuickTime video compressor. * Exports to QuickTime from a SONAR video project created from an AVI using the Indeo video compressor will create a movie with white frames. * Exports to QuickTime may have an extra white frame on the last frame of the movie. This extra frame can be removed with the QuickTime Pro Player or another QuickTime editing application.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/16 21:06:08
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FWIW Logic Pro X works only with QuickTime movies, to use anything else you need a converter. A converter might be your best solution for Windows as well.
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rogeriodec
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/16 23:16:09
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Thanks,
I found a way to allow the use of Anacrusis, keeping the video in 0:00:00, essentially creating the first bar with a beat and tempo containing all the notes of Anacrusis as if they were a full bar.
For example, if my original music is 4/4 at 100 BPM and I have three sixteenth notes in the first bar, I create the first measure as 3/8 at 200 BPM and the second bar I switch to 4/4 100 BPM.
This solves the problem not only from the difficulty of Sonar dealing with Start Time other than 0, but also avoids the confusion of changing all unique markings video time, if I slide it.
But still, I wonder if you could show me a link that teaches how to integrate Sonar to Vegas?
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/16 23:46:52
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rogeriodec
But still, I wonder if you could show me a link that teaches how to integrate Sonar to Vegas?
It's not linked in the sense of ReWire or something like that. I just get the video exactly as desired in Vegas, bring it into SONAR, then compose music to it. Vegas has a timeline that accommodates bars and beats, so you can easily make the length relate to musical values for when you bring it into SONAR. With narration for instructional videos, I record the narration in SONAR, then bring the audio into Vegas and cut the video to it. The reason for using both is Vegas does video infinitely better than SONAR, and SONAR does audio infinitely better than Vegas. When you use both for their intended tasks, the end result rocks. I often have SONAR, Vegas, and Hypercam all open at the same time and working together in Windows.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 02:09:07
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Sorry, but what does MP4 have to do with Quicktime? As far as I know they're unrelated. Apple Quicktime's proprietary format is .MOV, I thought. I've certainly been able to play MP4 files without Quicktime on my system. Can't say the same for .MOV files.
I wish Sonar would handle this simple feature better too. I'm all for practical solutions but buying video software just to create a good initial starting point is ridiculous. I get that Sonar is not a video editor but it does advertise being able to PLAY video for the purpose of scoring and this is a pretty fundamental issue, as evidenced by virtually everyone using VEGAS to do it. I'm not a programmer but I don't even see what start time has to do with whichever codec is in use. If I want it delayed by ten seconds, Sonar just needs to start playing it after ten seconds.
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Brando
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 09:14:03
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Sanderxpander
Sorry, but what does MP4 have to do with Quicktime? As far as I know they're unrelated. Apple Quicktime's proprietary format is .MOV, I thought. I've certainly been able to play MP4 files without Quicktime on my system. Can't say the same for .MOV files.
I wish Sonar would handle this simple feature better too. I'm all for practical solutions but buying video software just to create a good initial starting point is ridiculous. I get that Sonar is not a video editor but it does advertise being able to PLAY video for the purpose of scoring and this is a pretty fundamental issue, as evidenced by virtually everyone using VEGAS to do it. I'm not a programmer but I don't even see what start time has to do with whichever codec is in use. If I want it delayed by ten seconds, Sonar just needs to start playing it after ten seconds.
I think they're one and the same, as MP4 is an extension of Apple's Quicktime File Format, even though .Mov is QT's "native" format. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_14I honestly understand Logic's approach in this - insisting on a particular format (period) that works well inside Logic. In Cake's case, AVI seems to be the weapon of choice, but navigating the quagmire of Codecs and converters is frustrating and is likely to result in a user giving up in frustration. Cake could help the cause by communicating better about the limitations and realities for one, and point to codecs and conversion tools (if not include) that would make the process more workable. I understand that they do not want to get into developmental quicksand in solving video problems - it's easier to say "Use Vegas" and blame Microsoft as the limiting factor in not providing a better working video solution. But when other Windows based applications (including low cost and freeware) play video files reliably that SONAR can't seem to handle, it definitely adds to the frustration.
Brando
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rogeriodec
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 09:34:59
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Brando
it's easier to say "Use Vegas" and blame Microsoft as the limiting factor in not providing a better working video solution. But when other Windows based applications (including low cost and freeware) play video files reliably that SONAR can't seem to handle, it definitely adds to the frustration.
Exactly! But this is only one of the limitations of Sonar that is not seen by Cakewalk. There are other worse, which has made me almost give up completely Sonar (after 20 years only following Cakewalk). But after flirting with other DAW, I realized that everyone has faults. Things I love in Sonar are not in others. So it's a difficult choice, but I ended up choosing to live with this wife, who has many faults, but also has many virtues that do not exist in any other.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 09:52:49
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Sanderxpander
I'm all for practical solutions but buying video software just to create a good initial starting point is ridiculous. You don't have to, read what I said about using a converter. Brando]
I understand that they do not want to get into developmental quicksand in solving video problems - it's easier to say "Use Vegas" and blame Microsoft as the limiting factor in not providing a better working video solution. You don't have to buy or use Vegas! I just recommend Vegas because it's such a great video editing program for Windows. You can take "the Logic approach" and do a format conversion. If you search on "free MP4 to AVI converter" you'll get pages of returns. Microsoft and Apple chose different native formats for their operating systems. It's easiest to work within those constraints. To work outside that box requires additional work/resources. Even Vegas took a while to support MP4. Apparently Apple didn't think it is was worth the effort to make Logic work outside that box (and Apple has virtually unlimited resources); it's not surprising Cakewalk decided likewise. Why put effort into development when there are so many free/simple converters available? Of course like any program SONAR has limitations, but it seems counter-productive to want a solution for something that already has a simple solution. I think it would be a better use of Cake's time to solve issues that are unique to SONAR.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 10:02:37
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Sanderxpander
Sorry, but what does MP4 have to do with Quicktime? As far as I know they're unrelated. Apple Quicktime's proprietary format is .MOV, I thought. The identifier values in MP4 family files is Apple Inc., and they use AAC or Apple Lossless compression. MP4 is very much Apple. MOV is Apple's "container" for a variety of file types. (I'm not sure, but I think that if you know the file type in the MOV container, you can just type in a different suffix and it will be recognized by Windows if there's a suitable codec installed.)
I've certainly been able to play MP4 files without Quicktime on my system.
Then something installed an MP4 codec, probably a media player. I'm pretty sure that if you just install Windows, the system's media player will not play MP4 files.
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Resonant Serpent
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 10:09:13
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So, AVI is the best format to import into Sonar? Any other particulars? Maybe I should start a new thread?
I'm set to score a silent film in a couple of months, so I'm searching for info now.
If someone could make a "Scoring Film in Sonar" tutorial, I'd pay good money for it. Even if it involved other programs needed for the process.
A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far blackness of the night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world. - Aldo Leopold
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 10:15:33
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Resonant Serpent
So, AVI is the best format to import into Sonar?
WMV works equally well, and the file sizes can be much smaller (even at their highest resolution). Also note that there are different "flavors" of AVI, just like there are different "flavors" of MOV. I have yet to find an AVI variant SONAR couldn't handle, but I may not be looking hard enough 
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Resonant Serpent
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 10:18:34
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Anderton
Resonant Serpent
So, AVI is the best format to import into Sonar?
WMV works equally well, and the file sizes can be much smaller (even at their highest resolution). Also note that there are different "flavors" of AVI, just like there are different "flavors" of MOV. I have yet to find an AVI variant SONAR couldn't handle, but I may not be looking hard enough
Awesome. Thank you for the information.
A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far blackness of the night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world. - Aldo Leopold
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Jimbo 88
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 10:46:41
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☄ Helpfulby Resonant Serpent 2015/06/17 11:09:42
Resonant Serpent
So, AVI is the best format to import into Sonar? Any other particulars? Maybe I should start a new thread?
I'm set to score a silent film in a couple of months, so I'm searching for info now.
If someone could make a "Scoring Film in Sonar" tutorial, I'd pay good money for it. Even if it involved other programs needed for the process.
I did a video years ago. It is out of date 'cause Sonar's video playback has changed. I only generate AVI files now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh9Ico1HgC0 Hope it helps.... Also check this out... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShFEvnOKOio
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Brando
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 10:50:48
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Anderton
You don't have to buy or use Vegas! I just recommend Vegas because it's such a great video editing program for Windows. You can take "the Logic approach" and do a format conversion. If you search on "free MP4 to AVI converter" you'll get pages of returns.
Craig - no disrespect intended, and my post was not directed at you specifically, but more to Cakewalk. The common (on these forums) "solution" to "Just Use Vegas" has been echoed repeatedly by many users who like you have figured out how best to get around the limits of SONAR. I have always valued your input, and have great admiration for your refusal to "blame the tools" - to post solutions to inherent limitations in the software. Your focus is clearly on finding a way to make it work. Period. And that's as it should be. All of that helps the user base to get the job done. That being said, as a user of SONAR, I suggest that SONAR could be better in this respect out of the box. However that's achieved is largely a business decision, and I understand that SONAR was never intended to be a video editor. Even better communication of what works, which Codecs, conversion tools etc would go a long way to making users more aware of what the real capabilities are. Be up front - it does this, doesn't do that...Is unlikely to ever do that. The exact same thing can be said about Staff View - "use Notion/Finale/Sibelius/Digital Performer/Cubase" just apologizes for the inherent limitations within the program in this respect. (Yes - it helps people who really need to do so to get their work done and that's important too). To echo what rogeriodec said above, I still think SONAR is the best DAW out there, and there is so much more about it that I love and couldn't work without. Nothing wrong with working on the few wrinkles, grey hairs and love handles though - or pointing them out - (all in the family).
Brando
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Resonant Serpent
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 11:04:32
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Jimbo 88
Resonant Serpent
So, AVI is the best format to import into Sonar? Any other particulars? Maybe I should start a new thread?
I'm set to score a silent film in a couple of months, so I'm searching for info now.
If someone could make a "Scoring Film in Sonar" tutorial, I'd pay good money for it. Even if it involved other programs needed for the process.
I did a video years ago. It is out of date 'cause Sonar's video playback has changed. I only generate AVI files now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh9Ico1HgC0
Hope it helps....
Also check this out...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShFEvnOKOio
Thank you!
A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far blackness of the night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world. - Aldo Leopold
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 12:48:57
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Brando
That being said, as a user of SONAR, I suggest that SONAR could be better in this respect out of the box.
The bottom line is priorities. When a free/simple solution already exists - format conversion applications - there's much less incentive to spend what could be significant development time on creating another solution that although more elegant, would benefit only a limited percentage of the user base. Personally, I would prefer that Cakewalk spend their resources on issues where solutions don't already exist. For example given a choice between 30 bug fixes or not needing to convert formats if I want to import an MP4 file and move its start time, I'd take the bug fixes but of course, YMMV.
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Jimbo 88
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 13:57:09
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/06/17 19:53:31
Here is the thing. We live in a computer world of Apple vs Microsoft. Picture is edited overwhelmingly in Apple's world. Apple wants you to use their products, so they make it inconvenient to playback or do things outside of their world.
Quicktime and MP4's are no "walk in the park" to deal with either even in a total Apple environment . AVID (the people who own ProTools along with the most used video editing software) and Apple are not always working in perfect harmony.
So if you are going to score to picture in any DAW, you better have some picture tools also. Trust me, even if Sonar played back every picture format perfectly, you would still be posting here asking questions on how to fix some kind of situation a video editor or producer created.
So you can complain about what Sonar can do, or use it for what it does best and get the correct tools to do the job. Having Sonar concentrate on being a DAW feels best to me. Let the video editing happen in video programs. There is a very simple way to work sound and music for picture in Sonar. And it works very well. You just have to find your way there...
Just my 2 cents.
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Brando
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 16:38:39
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Jimbo 88
Here is the thing. We live in a computer world of Apple vs Microsoft. Picture is edited overwhelmingly in Apple's world. Apple wants you to use their products, so they make it inconvenient to playback or do things outside of their world.
Quicktime and MP4's are no "walk in the park" to deal with either even in a total Apple environment . AVID (the people who own ProTools along with the most used video editing software) and Apple are not always working in perfect harmony.
So if you are going to score to picture in any DAW, you better have some picture tools also. Trust me, even if Sonar played back every picture format perfectly, you would still be posting here asking questions on how to fix some kind of situation a video editor or producer created.
So you can complain about what Sonar can do, or use it for what it does best and get the correct tools to do the job. Having Sonar concentrate on being a DAW feels best to me. Let the video editing happen in video programs. There is a very simple way to work sound and music for picture in Sonar. And it works very well. You just have to find your way there...
Just my 2 cents.
My point (this is also in reply to Craig) was that I think Cakewalk needs to (as a minimum) be more clear on what the realities of what they intend for video in Sonar are and are going to be ( same for notation). Just like Apple did for Logic - "you can use QuickTime, or you can use QuickTime". In Cake's case maybe it's "anything but QuickTime or MP4. In Cakewalk's case there seems to be an expectation that it can play anything, until users like yourself clear the smoke. Even then, it's a confusing array of which codecs work, etc, depending on who offers the advice. From following your posts I know you know your stuff and have some cred but don't know if I could say the same about everyone who offers similar (or different) advice. if Cakewalk communicated openly about the realities of what is and is not possible, or planned I think a lot of this type of post would go away, and the discussion becomes more about "how can I?" Instead of "why can't I?" Just my opinion and I can see the hackles starting to rise so I will back away from this post. Best regards
Brando
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/17 18:55:28
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Brando
My point (this is also in reply to Craig) was that I think Cakewalk needs to (as a minimum) be more clear on what the realities of what they intend for video in Sonar are and are going to be ( same for notation). Just like Apple did for Logic - "you can use QuickTime, or you can use QuickTime". In Cake's case maybe it's "anything but QuickTime or MP4.
But that's not true, you can play back MP4 files. The issue is you can't move the start time on the time line. However, I agree this should be spelled out in the documentation along with the other QuickTime-based limitations. Simply graying out the start time, while it gets the point across, can lead to the confusion you're seeing in this thread.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/18 03:04:16
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Ultimately, there is something to be said for a single solution that always works. I support the OP there. Just saying in the documentation "Sonar works (best) with AVI, get this free converter here" would solve a lot of issues.
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mettelus
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/18 04:18:30
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+1 The part about recommending a specific solution is important from a couple perspectives. It acknowledges the gap and steers the user while not "feeding them to the wolves." There is a lot of "free" software out there with not only bloatware but straight up viruses in them. I would never tell anyone "Oh, go get a converter. Problem solved."
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rogeriodec
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/18 08:53:53
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Anderton
... you can play back MP4 files. The issue is you can't move the start time on the time line.
This is the exact point of this issue. While I'm following all the opinions, I have found a simple way to live with MP4 inside Sonar: Basically it's like I said on the topic #8, ie work with Measures and Tempos. It's faster, easier and less laborious. With this, I do not need Vegas or converters. So I use the Sonar's gear itself. Well, that was my choice and it's working. Of course, this does not exempt the Cakewalk to correct the problem or at least give a good warning about its limitations.
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meh
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Re: Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ?
2015/06/18 09:38:59
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