Sonar VS Software, and other questions

I'll take a stab at answering this, but it's more opinion than a carefully researched answer.
 
For simple projects, I don't think of VS as crippled at all.  In fact, the UI is so clean that it's preferable to me because there are no distractions.  
 
As far as I know, there is no comparision chart for VS vs other Sonar versions.  I'd like to see Cake release one.  There is a score view, but I've only used it casually.
 
Edit: I didn't see the 'recorder' part of your second question, so I answered it using VS.  You can play a file and record another, but I'm not sure if the recorded file is the sum of the new and old material.  If it is the sum, you could use one channel for playback and record the other channel.
If I understand your second question, I think the answer is 'yes'.  Let me give you an example.  I sometimes help out another band that doesn't have a keyboard player by creating a wave file that they can trigger during performance.  They will email me an MP3 of a song that has a keyboard intro.  I import the full song into a VS track.  From this, I can learn the part and set the project tempo.
 
I then create a MIDI track and record the intro.  I'll edit the MIDI track until I like the feel of the intro.  Now I can create audio tracks with different keyboard patches and tempos.  I'll send a few of these to the band for review and rehearsal.  Sometimes they will ask for changes.  Since I keep all of the audio tracks, I can choose whether I edit the audio using inserts, envelopes, etc. or record a new track.  I might end up with ten or so tracks by the time its done.
 
Hope this answers your question.  But, the only way for you to really know if VS meets your needs is to work with it. 
 
 
 

Hi,
 I'm curious...does anyone know if there's any tuning/pitch editing tools like V-vocal for example, in the VS software. I have some projects (wav files) that I would like to download into the VS 100 if I get one and do some pitch correction, total key changes on songs, etc. Does anyone know if this is possible with the VS software included? The more I look at this unit, the more I'm liking it. I just need to know these sort of things before I jump.
Thanks in advance!!

Thanks for responding, Guitarist and AT!

There is no scoring 



No score view? Ouch. That's a probable deal-breaker. I don't need anything fancy ( I have Sibelius) but I need at least a bare-bones score view.


As far as the hardware recorder (which you were talking about, I think), the short answer is no.  You can record stereo on top of your stereo bit, as I recall (I don't have the hardware here anymore).  I dont'think you can play a mono track and record anotherone. 



Ouch again.


Oh well, thanks for the info. It's an interesting product but I'm guessing it won't fit my needs. Maybe in the future, there will be something like a V-Studio 400: 


4 track portable recorder.
Either SONAR or a very close version of it, maybe something like SONAR 8 studio.


I don't mind the smaller track count or the lack of softsynths , but it would be nice to have the rest there. The reviews describe this product as a "Studio in a box", and it almost is but not quite. If they could deliver a better software product with a 4-track for about 8- 900, I think they would have quite a market for it.

AT


... There is no scoring

AT, I'm not sure where this info is coming from, but it's not correct.  I guess one could argue about what 'scoring' means.  I normally think about Sebelius or Finale as scoring software.  Sonar's scoring features don't measure up to these.
 
However, Sonar VS does have a Staff view.  Select a MIDI track and it displays it in staff notation.  I've used it and it works.  Here's an excerpt from the Sonar VS help file:

The Staff view displays the notes from one or more MIDI tracks using standard music notation, similar to the way the notation would appear on a printed page. You can add, edit, or delete notes; create percussion parts; add guitar chords and other notation markings; display guitar tablature; display the Fretboard pane; and print whole scores or individual parts to share with other musicians.

Looks like basic scoring to me. 

AT

... No V-Vocal or anything fancy. 
 

I'm not trying be difficult, but Sonar VS does have the VS64 Vocal Strip.  It's a pretty nice vocal processor with a de-esser, presence, tube saturation, vocal doubler, feedback, delay, and eq.  Some might call it semi-fancy. 
 
Murray
 

While I'm add it, a few more questions:

1. Can Sonar VS Export/import OMF files?

2.  Is it 64-bit?

3. Can you do basic editing (fadeouts, slip editing etc.)?

My bad about S on S recording.  I didn't test the mono/mono function, but it makes sense for overdubbing voice/guitar etc. It would, as noted above, make more sense to do 4 (or even 3 track) recording,but then you start getting into why not 8 tracks of hardware and the product becomes different.  Most people seemed more interested in playback functions for the HW use only, for gigs and such, wanting more mixer functions, which again is a different beast.  The hardware recorder seems more of a scratch pad for overdubbing parts than the above functions, although the recordings sound great.

As far as the software, it still is not a scoring program (tho neither is SONAR).  Score view, yes.  I didn't read the question well enough.

As far as the effects, I mentioned the vocal strip (and there is another thread around the forum similar to this one I praised it).  definately more upscale than the other included effects, but still not v-vocal.  It is good, tho, and includes many if not most effects one would use on a track except for reverb in one package.  I, and most people, finds that it sounds good too.
 
Should you buy the package?  My first concern w/ an interface is does it have enough in/outs and how does it sound.  Is 6 analog ins enough?  And it sounds good enough.  The 2 pres and conversion are nice and clean and will work fine, even in a pro setting.  The fader is superb and it is pretty easy to move around the screen using the hardware.  It makes mixing easy.  The knob  controllers I didn't really use that much since I didn't have a lot of time w/ the machine, but I'm sure you could learn them to your advantage.  In short, the hardware goes from good to great, tho no substitute for mission specific units (multi-track recorder/field recorder, etc). 

the included software is simple (and easy) and won't keep you from working.  The left hand track info is kinda toyish and I found it hard to squeeze a lot of tracks onto a screen, but that shouldn't be a deal killer.  HS is a -$100 future purchase that looks more like SONAR and there are plenty of free/cheap VST's out there to round out the effects pallette.  DimLE is a great sounding sample synth, tho not programmable, and the SI stuff is a servicable collection for a basic combo band.  Once again, it ain't top of the line but works.  The software should be fine and it is far cheaper to upgrade it rather than your hardware.  Think of it as a starter kit and upgrades will make working easier.

@

Thanks to both of you for the additional info.

I currently use Sonar 3 and an M-audio Firewire Solo. I'm looking to upgrade my system in the cheapest way possible. I have lots of VSTs so that's not really an issue.

I don't really need a control surface. I'm sure if I had one I might feel differently, but I've got along fine without one. What I like about this box is that it has more ins than my M-Audio and the portable recorder.

I don't know enough about 64-bit to make it a dealbreaker. I know that it gives one access to more RAM, that's about all I know.

I might bite the bullet and get 8.5 PE, but that means I couldnt afford the V-Studio for awhile. I'm also not thrilled with the pres on the M-Audio. It's hard to tell, my room is so lousy that it doesnt really matter, which is why I am intrigued with a portable solution.

AT

Murman - no problem w/ the corrections above.  ... 

AT,
 
This is what works best in forums: a bunch of users thinking, testing, etc. until we get it right.  It's great when the adults are in control.
 
I didn't understand your comment about mono recording in your last post.  The VS-100 records a stereo wave file.  Channels 1&2 can be panned as needed for either stereo or two-track mono.
 
M.

The VS-100 records a stereo wave file.  The source of the file is the mixer, so all of the inputs are available if needed.  Channels 1&2 have pan controls; the remaining channels feed directly to the R/L channels of the recorder.
 
If you want to track mono, you just import the stereo file as mono tracks and discard the one you don't want.
 
Your guitar player example works.  However, each recording will be stereo, so you have to convert to mono within Sonar if you have only a mono input during recording.
 
I'm not sure about recording the BG file as part of the mix.  Sounds like this would best be done by mixing within Sonar.  Both files should be in sync.
 
M.
 
 

Guitarist,

yea, each recording is stereo. 

Overdub - not really.  You could, however, play to a prerecorded track on SD and record along with it, saving multiple files.    So, start w/ a drum loop and record guitar to it.  Then bass, then vocal.  You would have a series of files, all synced to the drum loop which could then be assembled in VS-Sonar w/ computer.

I think that is what Murman is saying.  As I remember, the manual was pretty thin, but it ain't even available on line as far as I can tell.

@

AT

... As I remember, the manual was pretty thin, but it ain't even available on line as far as I can tell.

 
Both manuals are on the VS-100 support site.  The procedures are in there, but things like the signal flow during BG recording are not explained.

Sorry Murman, you snuck in when I was posting! Reading your posts now. I will download the manual.

I found a setting today that I didn't know about that will let you record mono files in the standalone mode. 
 
The "Wave-Rec Source" setting lets you choose the source for the standalone recorder to be:
  1. 'Mix' (Output of the mixer.  The default setting.)
  2. '1-2' (Records channels 1 and 2 in stereo.  Other channels are ignored.)
  3. '1' ( Records channel 1 only and creates a mono wav file)
 
The last setting would make it easier to import several mono tracks into Sonar.

Dan,

The VS UI is to me is exactly like what you described, "a simpler more logical UI for some basic applications." 

I'd say that Cake did a good job in eliminating a lot of the clutter of the PE UI.   The track display was cleaned up by eliminating some features, like the track inspector, and by organizing the track display into a 3-level heirarchy that you drill down into if needed.  Clutter in the toolbar area was eliminated by fixing the toolbar layout and by organizing all of the project displays into a single area that looks like an attractive LCD display.

The simplified UI was redesigned to make it more attractive.  It's more curved and realistic.  For example, the visual design of the buttons on each track have the visual look of the buttons on the VS-100 hardware.  When the buttons are off, they blend into the background and don't catch your eye.  The track buttons on PE look flat in comparision and are distracting even when off.

Simplifying the UI made it possible to enlarge many of the controls.  I find the larger display elements to be the perfect size for using VS on a laptop.   I hated PE on a laptop.  My desktop uses two 24" Samsung monitors which works great for PE. 

There have been a few times over the years where I used Sonar infrequently.  Opening up PE after two months usually took some time to get back up to speed.   VS has never given me that feeling of "where am I?".

I like having both UIs.  Most of what I use Sonar for is creating a few tracks for use by others in their projects or for live backing tracks.  I record MIDI, edit as needed, then bounce to audio using a hardware synth.  Minimal needs for mixing, plugins, etc.  VS works great for that.  But sometimes I'll do a more complex project where Sonar PE is the natural choice.

UI's tend to be personal, so I'm sure some will have other opinions.

Hope this helps.

Murray