Sonar VSt Send/Receive System Exclusive Messages?

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rMidiRenden
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2011/01/29 12:49:45 (permalink)

Sonar VSt Send/Receive System Exclusive Messages?

Hello.
 
I have a Windows 64x VST That I use all the time in Reaper.
The VST provides and interface to control Alesis DM5/D4/Sr16's.
 
It sends System Exclusive Messages out the MIDI port and receives System Exclusives from the MIDI port.
 
I cannot for the life of me figure out how to configure the VST in Sonar 8.x.
 
So I Have questions:
1.) I think Sonar does not allow System Exclusive Messages to be transmitted or received if they are larger than 250 bytes. Is this true?
 
2.) In Reaper I can set the 'io' on the VST track to a record/monitor mode. This means that data received at the Midi input port gets passed along to my VST. The incomming data is not recorded in this mode (which is what I want). I see nothing in Sonar that allows me to configure the MIDI input in such a way. IS this true? There is no way to configure a Sonar 'Synth' track to do this?
 
 
Thanks
 
 
 
#1

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    daveny5
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    Re:Sonar VSt Send/Receive System Exclusive Messages? 2011/01/29 15:16:07 (permalink)
    1.) I think Sonar does not allow System Exclusive Messages to be transmitted or received if they are larger than 250 bytes. Is this true?   2.) In Reaper I can set the 'io' on the VST track to a record/monitor mode. This means that data received at the Midi input port gets passed along to my VST. The incomming data is not recorded in this mode (which is what I want). I see nothing in Sonar that allows me to configure the MIDI input in such a way. IS this true? There is no way to configure a Sonar 'Synth' track to do this?



    1) Not true. I use Sonar Sysex to backup the presets on my external synthsizers via MIDI. You can't edit large Sysex files in Sonar, but you can send and receive them. 


    2) If you mean: can you use Sonar to play softsynths without recording a track? The answer is: of course you can. As a matter of fact you can insert multiple softsynths and play them all from one external keyboard. To do this, you just need to have set the softsynth as the output on each MIDI track and set Echo Input on. I do that so I can get layered sounds like I'll put an analog synth sound on one track, a modeled piano on another and some strings on a third. 

    Dave
    Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F
    Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX
    Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic.
    Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. 
    Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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    rMidiRenden
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    Re:Sonar VSt Send/Receive System Exclusive Messages? 2011/01/29 16:15:03 (permalink)
    Thanks Dave, But perhaps I was not clear enough with my question.
    As to question #1:

    I do not want to 'store' the system exclusive message. What I said was
    "It sends System Exclusive Messages out the MIDI port and receives System Exclusives from the MIDI port".

    Here is what the VST does:
    1.) Sends a System Exclusive Inquiry Message Out The Output Port.
    2.) Expects to Receive A System Exclusive Response At The Input Port.
    3.) Reads The System Exclusive Response And Decides What Type Of Device Is Attached (A Dm5, D4 Or Sr16).
    4.) Sends A System Exclusive Edit Buffer Request (Assuming The Attached Device Is A Dm5) Out The Output Port.
    5.) The Attached Dm5 responds with a System Exclusive Message containing The Edit Buffer. This is about 345 bytes.

    I do not want any of these System Exclusive Messages stored anywhere. This needs to be real-time. It seems Sonar does even send the initial System Exclusive Enquiry (On behalf of the VST,I never see it going out the MIDI output port). It in fact seems to be blocking/ignoring it.

    When my interface fails at the above procedure the screen I display has a 'Retry Initialization' button. I Have added a 'Send Note' button which simply sends a Midi note on out the output port. The 'Send Note' button works. Sonar sends the Midi note on that my VST requested.  The Initialize Button does not (meaning there is absolutly no Midi data going out the Midi output port).

    I hope this clarifies my question #1
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    rMidiRenden
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    Re:Sonar VSt Send/Receive System Exclusive Messages? 2011/01/29 16:35:45 (permalink)
    Question #2 clarification:

    The data I need the VST to get is System exclusive Data. The VST will get standard MIDI events such as note on, note off, pan, aftertouch and so on. It is the System Exclusive Messages produced by the device attached to the MIDI input port that I am after. Again, I do not want to save these messages, i need to process them in real time.

    I clearly have not gotten to this point do to the fact that Sonar is not sending the System Exclusive Midi data generated by my VST out the Midi output port.

    Thanks Dave, any thoughts?




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    daveny5
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    Re:Sonar VSt Send/Receive System Exclusive Messages? 2011/01/29 16:57:39 (permalink)
    I've never used it in that way. The Sysx in Sonar is for sending setup info to a synth at the start of a project or for sending dumps back and forth either automatically at the start of a project, or manually triggered by the operator, but not in real time. 

    Dave
    Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F
    Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX
    Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic.
    Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. 
    Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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    rMidiRenden
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    Re:Sonar VSt Send/Receive System Exclusive Messages? 2011/01/30 11:38:12 (permalink)
    Thanks Dave.
    Anyone Else?

    So we know I have several times over the last year attempted to get my question answered by CakeWalk Tech Support. The only reason I have started this again is I am looking into the SX1 upgrade.

    The reality is that I do not even use Sonar 8.5 (though I own it). I have an awfull lot of external hardware and I have written VST's to interface from my projects to them. These VST's are all MIDI based and most require the ability to communicate with the hardware via System Exclusive Messages.  Again, these are real time messages, not the 'save and restore device configuration' mechanism that Dave is refering to.

    I have emailed and spoken with Cakewalk TS. I tell them exactly what I need to know, They need to ask a 'programmer', they will get back to me. By the way I tell them even of the answer is 'Sonar does not process System Exclusive Messages in real time and your VST will never be able to send a SysEx or receive a SysEx in the fashion you require' I would still like to officially hear that answer from someone at cakewalk!
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    daveny5
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    Re:Sonar VSt Send/Receive System Exclusive Messages? 2011/01/30 17:34:50 (permalink)
    The reality is that I do not even use Sonar 8.5 (though I own it).



    I'm telling you the answer is: it can't be done in Sonar. So go do it in Reaper. Are you here just to troll for Reaper? I don't think there is a huge demand for this feature and that's probably why Sonar doesn't have it. If you really need it, there is a feature request somewhere on the Cakewalk site. 

    Dave
    Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F
    Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX
    Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic.
    Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. 
    Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
    #7
    rMidiRenden
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    Re:Sonar VSt Send/Receive System Exclusive Messages? 2011/01/31 13:37:22 (permalink)
    Thanks Dave (I Think?).
    Having a bad day? Or is this just a typical web/forum response
    (e.g really rude, useless, just a bunch of clutter).
    No, I am not a 'troll' for Reaper. I am not even a fan of Reaper.
    I am simply trying to get an answer to my question (preferably from a CakeWalk representative).
    I am glad that you do not think there is a huge demand for this 'feature'.
    I can tell you that there is probably zero demand for this 'feature'.
    Thanks for telling me what the answer is ('it can't be done in Sonar') but please do not be offended if I take your answer with a grain of salt because I am not sure as to exactly what your credentials are to be making such a definitive statement.

    To continue, The first thing my VST does is sends F0 7E 7F 06 01 F7 to the host
    as a Midi event. The Vst::sendVstEventsToHost() does not fail when I do this (it reports sucess). As I have stated the SysEx never goes out the Midi port.

    I have done the following within Sonar:
    1.) I created a MIDi track and added (via the Event List) A Sysxdata type
        with the Data: F0 7E 7F 06 01 F7
        I Armed the track and recorded.
        When i look back in the Event List, I see I received back from the device
        (In response to the Sysxdata F0 7E 7F 06 01 F7 THAT WAS SENT TO THE DEVICE)
        A Sysxdata with Data:F0 7E 00 06 02 00 00 0E 13 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 F7.
        THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS EXPECTED.

    So it seems Sonar itself can perform the action my VST want's it to perform (Yes i know that eventually I get to a system exclusive message that will be greater than 250 bytes, that would be another issue. I prefer to attempt to resolve this issue first) But Sonar does not honer the VST's request to send a System Exclusive Message.

    One would think that It is not Sonar, but the VST Adapter 4.5.x that is not passing along the System Exclusive Message to be sent to Sonar.

    Any one with any ideas?

    Thanks


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