abacab
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Sonar With WASAPI Test
Well I am happy to report good test results when running Sonar Platinum 2016.12 with WASAPI enabled with my on-board Realtek audio chip. Since everything was running smooth, maybe it was just out of curiosity, boredom, or a desire to stir things up, I made the change. Disabled my FireWire audio, my FireWire PCIe interface, rebooted and enabled the on-board audio in my BIOS. Set up the Windows audio for the HD audio playback device. Then started Sonar, and setup the WASAPI exclusive mode @ 44.1/16. Ran the wave profiler ... and got 10ms effective latency at 440 samples! This is quite usable with soft synths. 
post edited by abacab - 2017/01/25 17:13:00
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ampfixer
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/25 00:31:55
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/01/25 17:13:17
I think the biggest advantage is that it gives new life to old hardware. I have a remote setup using an old dual core PC and it's great. No need to invest in another interface. 20 year old mixer and 10 year old computer. Great for straight up audio tracking.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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noynekker
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/25 02:30:27
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WASAPI drivers development came totally out of the blue . . .
. . . who knew Cakewalk were even working on such things ?
It was never on their website for future developments. They clearly saw an opportunity and developed it right away.
Mobile recording and editing just got WAY more powerful on my laptop.
Maybe Cakewalk know what we need more than we know what we need.
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Cubase, RME Babyface Pro, Intel i7 3770K @3.5Ghz, Asus P8Z77-VPro/Thunderbolt, 32GB DDR3 RAM, GeForce GTX 660 Ti, 250 GB OS SSD, 2TB HDD samples, Win 10 Pro 64 bit, backed up by Macrium Reflect, Novation Impulse 61 Midi Key Controller, Tannoy Active Near Field Monitors, Guitars by Vantage, Gibson, Yamaki and Ovation.
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karhide
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/25 03:47:10
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/01/25 17:13:30
This is great and means I don't have to drag an interface round with me all the time. Still need to do some more testing but it's been positive so far 
Studio: Sonar Platinum/Cakewalk by Bandlab Intel Core i7 32GB RAM Samsung Evo 1TB system drive Windows 10 64bit - RME FireFace UFX - Focusrite OctoPre MK II - Audient Mico Mobile: Sonar Platinum/Cakewalk by Bandlab Intel Core i7 8GB RAM Samsung Evo 1TB system drive Windows 10 64bit - RME FireFace 400 Mobile2: Cakewalk by Bandlab Intel Core i7 8GB RAM 256 GB System Drive Windows 10 64 bit http://www.karhide.co.uk/https://karhide.bandcamp.com
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abacab
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/25 13:58:27
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☄ Helpfulby Beepster 2017/01/25 14:05:43
I was curious to see if the other audio apps that cohabit my PC would take offense to the missing ASIO driver. It seems that WASAPI is only officially exposed in select applications, but in my case I also found a few that let me choose the MME driver, then under output device I selected something like "Speakers - High Definition Audio Device". That is the name assigned by Windows to my on-board Realtek HD audio output. For many apps beyond Sonar on Windows 10, there is good evidence that Windows 10 will now provide lower latency. It seems that if either WASAPI or the HD Audio Device can be selected it may work fine. I did run into a couple of exceptions below*. In many cases, I have no idea what the actual latency is, but hitting a key on my controller produced a note-on in a VSTi without a detectable delay. So that much is good. Microsoft must have tweaked their drivers in a recent Windows 10 update. Host apps with virtual instruments in projects at 44.1/16: Reaper 5.26 - WASAPI, Mode: Shared loopback(CAUTION), Speakers (High Definition Audio Device). No detectable VSTi latency. 11ms at 512 samples. Ableton Live 9 Trial - MME/DirectX, Speakers (High Definition Audio Wave). No detectable VSTi latency. VSTHost 1.56- MME Speakers (High Definition Audio). No detectable VSTi latency. AIR Ignite 1.4.1 - WASAPI, No detectable latency. Not actually a VST host, but does contain proprietary virtual instruments. *Band in a Box 2017 with internal DXi synth - MME, Speakers (High Definition Audio), 104ms latency. Obvious latency. This app is mostly used for playback, but if desired, a good workaround here seems to be to use a virtual MIDI port over to the synth rack in Sonar or another host for low latency real-time soft synth playback. MIDI thru seems to work in this case. *MuseScore 2.0.3 with internal Fluid synth - MME, Speakers (High Definition Audio). Obvious latency. No MIDI out port. Standalone soft synths: SynthMaster - Automatically detected the correct output (HD Audio). Playable. Kontakt 5 Player - Automatically detected WASAPI and Speakers (High Definition Audio), with latency set at 448 samples , latency 10.2ms. Playable. Reaktor 6 Player - Same as Kontakt Player. Playable. Analog Lab 2 Demo - Automatically detected Windows Audio, Speakers (High Definition Audio). 448 samples at 10.2ms latency. Playable. Plogue sforzando x64 - WASAPI, Speakers (High Definition Audio). 512 buffers. Playable. Rapture - Nope. Needs ASIO**. Rapture Session - Nope. Needs ASIO**. Dimension Pro x64 - Nope. Needs ASIO**. Z3TA+2 x64 - Nope. Needs ASIO**. ** Thanks to VSTHost, the stand alone soft synths that require ASIO can have their VSTi plugs run in here.
post edited by abacab - 2017/01/25 17:10:02
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pharohoknaughty
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/25 15:36:39
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Cakewalk user since DOS3. Currently Platinum on a ASUS Z97 Sabertooth Mark 1 USB 3.1, i4790 3.6, 16 gigs memory, Windows 10 64, RME UCX using firewire.
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ampfixer
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/25 16:47:31
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When you run other hosts you're not using Cakewalk's WASPAI drivers.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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abacab
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/25 16:54:58
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☄ Helpfulby Beepster 2017/01/25 17:12:05
ampfixer
When you run other hosts you're not using Cakewalk's WASPAI drivers.
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
WASAPI presents the app with "endpoints" which can be multichannel or stereo or mono ...
And FWIW WASAPI isn't a driver model. Its a layer that talks to the WDM driver itself. So there is no such ting as a WASAPI driver.
It's actually a Windows thing, not Cakewalk ... Sonar just enhanced support for it. About WASAPIhttps://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd371455(v=vs.85).aspx The Windows Audio Session API (WASAPI) enables client applications to manage the flow of audio data between the application and an audio endpoint device. Header files Audioclient.h and Audiopolicy.h define the WASAPI interfaces. Every audio stream is a member of an audio session. Through the session abstraction, a WASAPI client can identify an audio stream as a member of a group of related audio streams. The system can manage all of the streams in the session as a single unit. The audio engine is the user-mode audio component through which applications share access to an audio endpoint device. The audio engine transports audio data between an endpoint buffer and an endpoint device. To play an audio stream through a rendering endpoint device, an application periodically writes audio data to a rendering endpoint buffer. The audio engine mixes the streams from the various applications. To record an audio stream from a capture endpoint device, an application periodically reads audio data from a capture endpoint buffer.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/25 17:05:53
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noynekker
WASAPI drivers development came totally out of the blue . . .
. . . who knew Cakewalk were even working on such things ?
It was never on their website for future developments. Neither was support for BLE-MIDI (MIDI Bluetooth Low Energy), but it was working at NAMM. Noel had Jamstik connected to SONAR via BLE, which even the guys at Zivix didn't think was possible. So you never know...
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tenfoot
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/25 18:14:34
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/01/25 18:29:00
noynekker
WASAPI drivers development came totally out of the blue . . .
It is certainly great news that Cakewalk has chosen to work on further integration of wasapi and Sonar (just as they did with wdm/ks years before), but wasapi itself certainly didn't come out of the blue. Wasapi has been present and under constant development in windows sInce 2007. Since the release of windows 10 and it's improvements to windows core audio, wasapi has worked particularly well with Sonar. I suspect most people just didn't notice or try it until Cakewalk introduced 'exclusive mode' as a monthly update feature. There is a great article on the history of windows audio (in which Cakewalk gets an honourable mention) here: http://www.shanekirk.com/...of-windows-audio-apis/
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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stm113cw
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/26 15:21:32
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Please excuse my ignorance would the ability to use WASPAI help with my latency issues? I am running Windows 10, Focusrite 18i8 and still have more latency than I care for, and I really don't like ASIO4ALL, it seems to cause so many glitches in my setup.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/26 16:24:42
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stm113cw
Please excuse my ignorance would the ability to use WASPAI help with my latency issues? I am running Windows 10, Focusrite 18i8 and still have more latency than I care for, and I really don't like ASIO4ALL, it seems to cause so many glitches in my setup.
No ASIO will always outperform a native driver like WASAPI. Asio4all is not ASIO. it is a wrapper to use for WDM mode. You need to keep it well away from a system that uses proper ASIO drivers or it will interfere. You need to get rid of ALL traces including using REG EDIT. You should not have trouble with a Focusrite driver. If so contact them, they are very good at answering.
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abacab
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/01/26 18:24:29
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+1 to what Cactus said!
WASAPI is for use with your on-board PC sound chip. Same for ASIO4ALL. They are useful if you do not have an external audio interface, as they can provide lower latency for the Windows drivers.
But in the case that you already have a Focusrite, definitely use their supplied drivers in ASIO mode only, to get the lowest latency that device is capable of!
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dantarbill
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/02/21 16:57:32
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Ok...I'm poking at an old thread...but I just want to add to the chorus who say that the "new" WASAPI support is "pretty darned spiffy". Being able to run SPlat on my laptop (for non-critical tasks) without all the extra boxes and wires that make it look like it's on life support is just plain wonderful!
Yay!
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abacab
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/02/21 19:04:54
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Agreed, as long as you don't need to input external audio. But for playing back audio and working in the box with virtual instruments, it's smooth sailing! Something else I discovered recently is that Windows 10 provides a recording option with WASAPI that you don't see with MME or Directsound. In my system it's "RealTek High Definition Audio (loopback)". For example, with that enabled as the recording source in Audacity, I can directly record a WAV file of any audio playback on my computer, such as from a media player or web browser. It's like the old sound blaster record "what you hear" source from back in the day
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Cactus Music
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/02/22 20:48:21
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( shhhh, keep that quiet! no ones supposed to know you can do that :) I used to do that trick and record into Wave Lab. I found an easier way for utubes. http://en.savefrom.net/1-how-to-download-youtube-video/ It has options for downloading just the audio if you like. Quality is not always the greatest but I find it handy when I want the original version of a cover tune while working it out. Great for old obscure material not found on iTunes.
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HubiWinkler
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/03/05 15:49:52
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Here how I configured WASAPI for 24/96, shared mode and surround output with my Realtek (ALC892) onboard sound chip:
Windows: set standard format to 24 bit/96kHz (speaker-properties-extended)
Sonar: Audio/Driver mode "WASAPI Shared",
disable "share with other programs" (that means enable background audio)
set format to 24 bit, 96000.
I have 4.0 Speakers, configured as QUAD-Surround (green and black plugs, outs 1/2 and 5/6),
and use the blue and orange plug as line in.
Sound output is shared with all other programs, what means I can hear winamp, audacity or even a game simultaneous while playing a sonar VST instrument panned in 4.0.
10 ms latency is still acceptable low.
Win7-64,
sonar professional (2016.12)
realtek driver V 6.0.1.7200 14.3.2014
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Littleman
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Re: Sonar With WASAPI Drivers Test
2017/05/03 16:56:56
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☄ Helpfulby soundtweaker 2017/05/04 06:18:19
Pro tip in case it helps:
The Realtek drivers su ck donkey balls...uninstall them / block them / do whatever it takes to have Microsoft's generic drivers instead for your realtek chip (on my Lenovo Y50 it is called "High Definition Audio Device".
With that driver, I can go as low as 2/3ms with no crackle when using The Grandeur (live piano by Native Instrument) - absolutely amazing from such a cheap chip! (don't forget to use 192Khz)
Thanks Sonar, You RAWK! :)
(on a sidenote, the generic driver also removes a hissing sound / interference from my jack output - yay).
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