pbognar
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Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
Let me start by stating that I would have gladly paid $49 to have the existing Staff View issues resolved - and I don't mean printing. If I would want to print, I'd export my MIDI files to a notation program. To those of us who have been waiting for years to have the Staff View issues resolved, it is a little cruel to market this as " Notation Expanded". Obviously " Notation Exported (to another vendor's program)!!!" comes to mind as a more accurate name for this. " Sonar X1 Expanded now supports Music XML" has a hollow ring to it when it is export only. Being a " universal digital sheet music interchange" format, one would think that at the very least, import would be included. " Create your song in SONAR X1 and, once a composition is finished, simply export in Music XML format for use in popular notation programs..." Ouch!!! - is that to mean that one does not compose using notation? I am happy for those who have asked for XML export support - really, I am (but shouldn't this be included in the base application?). As for those of us who want to edit/insert/delete our MIDI data within Sonar in the Staff View, I can't help but feel that this is the day that any hope of Staff View fixes has died.
post edited by pbognar - 2011/09/15 14:26:44
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ampfixer
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/15 14:38:18
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Yes, I think it's safe to say you got hooped. There will be many that share your sentiments.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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Susan G
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/15 15:01:21
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Hi-
It says "The Staff View has direct Music XML export integrated right into the view." I've never used Music XML, but given the limitations of the Staff View, does anyone know if/how that would be an improvement over exporting/importing MIDI? I suppose it would retain staff assignments & expression marks, etc., but I'm also guessing a lot of clean-up would be required in the notation software after that anyway.
Maybe import will be included in the next "expansion", but my original reaction was along the lines of pbognar's -- this might be the end of direct improvements to the Staff View.
Thanks-
-Susan
2.30 gigahertz Intel Core i7-3610QM; 16 GB RAMWindows 10 x64; NI Komplete Audio 6.SONAR Platinum (Lexington) x64
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pbognar
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/15 15:02:59
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ampfixer
Yes, I think it's safe to say you got hooped. There will be many that share your sentiments.
And to think I was going to pull the trigger on a Quad-Capture. I should probably consider an M-Audio Fast Track Ultra and whatever software packages they offer 
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Elffin
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/15 15:42:14
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I wonder if they'l integrate the step record into this window as an option too?
I hate using Sibelius to 'input' music ... export will be handy to make proper printouts...
Please Cakewalk ... just do the minor adjustments with the triplets!
Why not also create layers for midi? (similar to audio tracks).... but adjust notation view to show them together? (and we get to dictate which cleff we want middle C in!)
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rbowser
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/15 16:14:57
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pbognar
..."Create your song in SONAR X1 and, once a composition is finished, simply export in Music XML format for use in popular notation programs..." Ouch!!! - is that to mean that one does not compose using notation?
... There's no question that Sonar's Staff View is pretty bad. It got dumbed down in X1, making it even worse. SV was better 10 years ago in Pro Audio. But... I understand that some people compose using notation, pbognar, and, well, that's what a Notation program is for.--SV in a sequencer program like Sonar should be a good additional tool, but for it to be a full-fledged replacement for a Notation program isn't realistic, IMHO. And Susan G has it right about XML. It doesn't magically make what you see in the SV look better once it's exported. MIDI XML is very literal, and far from perfect. I've used it to share Sibelius files with a Finale user - and what looked perfect in Sib came out rather imperfect after the translation.--So, it won't be much better to export XML to a Notation program rather than a MIDI file. Randy B.
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
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Guitarpima
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/15 16:29:39
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I must have missed something. They are offering and expansion just so you can export xml files? If you can already export midi what is the point. I've never used xml files either but it would appear, according to Randy, that it's not a great option so why bother?
I guess I don't get what is so special about this.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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pbognar
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/15 17:32:39
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rbowser
pbognar
..."Create your song in SONAR X1 and, once a composition is finished, simply export in Music XML format for use in popular notation programs..." Ouch!!! - is that to mean that one does not compose using notation?
... There's no question that Sonar's Staff View is pretty bad. It got dumbed down in X1, making it even worse. SV was better 10 years ago in Pro Audio. But...
I understand that some people compose using notation, pbognar, and, well, that's what a Notation program is for.--SV in a sequencer program like Sonar should be a good additional tool, but for it to be a full-fledged replacement for a Notation program isn't realistic, IMHO.
And Susan G has it right about XML. It doesn't magically make what you see in the SV look better once it's exported. MIDI XML is very literal, and far from perfect. I've used it to share Sibelius files with a Finale user - and what looked perfect in Sib came out rather imperfect after the translation.--So, it won't be much better to export XML to a Notation program rather than a MIDI file.
Randy B.
Randy My way of working with MIDI is primarily real-time or step entered, but I like to use the staff view for changing performance based MIDI data or for entering some new data. I am not so proficient in notation, that I would not rely solely on the staff view - I just prefer it to PRV most of the time - I visualize in notation. So having the the staff view embedded in Sonar is a must for me. So the follow-up to that is that I would like to have the handling of triplets, etc. fixed. Of course, I also use audio, so I like to see both types of data lined up in Sonar. Others may work differently, and complete all their work in a notation program. At this point, they are out of luck with Music XML, because Notation Expanded doesn't allow for import into Sonar. To your second point, I don't really have a need to print at this time, but I'm in full agreement that whether an export of MIDI data to a notation program is done using Music XML or a traditional MIDI data file export makes no difference to me.
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ducatibruce2
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/15 18:31:50
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Staff view is the output of an interpretation of the midi data.
XML export will be the output of an interpretation of the midi data.
It begs the question: Will the XML export interpretation be better than the SV interpretation? And if it is, why can't the SV version be fixed?
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pbognar
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/15 18:45:14
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ducatibruce2
Staff view is the output of an interpretation of the midi data.
XML export will be the output of an interpretation of the midi data.
It begs the question: Will the XML export interpretation be better than the SV interpretation? And if it is, why can't the SV version be fixed?
The MIDI data in Sonar can be: a) read, formatted for display, and updated in place by the apparently unmaintainable program code behind the Staff View -or- b) read and formated by the newly written Music XML export function, which creates a file that can be sent off to an external notation program for viewing, editing, and printing. The key is that once the data has left Sonar, any external updates made to the data are too clumsy to bring back into Sonar.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/15 23:25:57
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Someone tell me if I'm wrong....
I'm under the impression that if you compose with staff view, input lyrics and chords and Export XML, the next program should be able to see the lyrics and chords. That does not work with midi files and since I will create lead sheets in Sonar, it helps me out tremendously.
Also importing a midi file into Sibelius had many limitations. Sibelius is not able to playback video from a file created from midi. Perhaps this corrects this issue also. A big plus for me again..
tell me if I'm wrong...
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/16 01:05:42
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rbowser
I understand that some people compose using notation, pbognar, and, well, that's what a Notation program is for.--SV in a sequencer program like Sonar should be a good additional tool, but for it to be a full-fledged replacement for a Notation program isn't realistic, IMHO.
Randy B.
If you read the 100's of pages of posts on this issue you will understand how ignorant this statement is. It never fails...  (This forum needs a face palm smiley.)
post edited by vintagevibe - 2011/09/16 09:25:24
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mudgel
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/16 07:35:01
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What I understand is that there is no update to the actual Notation Editor in SONAR.
whatever limitations it has for editing and displaying data whether it originated as MIDI data or was entered directly into the staff view remain.
Now we will be able to export that as XML.
If our complaints about Staff View have been about the way it displays and handles things like triplets (in terms of entering them and how they display) then now being able to export those limitations isn't helpful at all as far as I can see.
Now if the Staff view could do a better job in displaying the actual MIDI that I record (or enter manually) and then export that as XML we'd have gotten something.
As far as I can see I'll just be able to export the crappy looking Staff view to another program to look at it there. Huh?
SONAR's always had a Staff view and it shold be updated just the same as any other. I too like to sometimes start a project off in Staff view so when that's the case I don't even go to SONAR any more.
If musical notation (read: serious professional level notation) is involved anywhere in a project then depending on what path my production will take and who the intended end user will be then I'll either start in NOTION 3 or Pro Tools 9.
If my end user will be an orchestra etc then I will do the whole project in NOTION3 (a dedicated scoring application). On the other hand if I know that I'll have to write parts and do some composition as well as combine recorded material with MIDI AND that I'll have to provide scores for musicians etc then I'll go to PT9HD, because it's scoring/notation tools are excellent and very comprehensive and it can compete with any other DAW as far as the Audio and MIDI go.
If X1 was as stable as 8.5.3 is and had PT9's notation/staff I'd be a happy camper and could stick with one DAW.
Even Presonus Studio One (which doesn't have a staff editor at all) can import XML files allowing the MIDI data for editing.
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pbognar
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/16 18:38:49
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mudgel
What I understand is that there is no update to the actual Notation Editor in SONAR.
whatever limitations it has for editing and displaying data whether it originated as MIDI data or was entered directly into the staff view remain.
Now we will be able to export that as XML.
If our complaints about Staff View have been about the way it displays and handles things like triplets (in terms of entering them and how they display) then now being able to export those limitations isn't helpful at all as far as I can see.
Now if the Staff view could do a better job in displaying the actual MIDI that I record (or enter manually) and then export that as XML we'd have gotten something.
As far as I can see I'll just be able to export the crappy looking Staff view to another program to look at it there. Huh?
SONAR's always had a Staff view and it shold be updated just the same as any other. I too like to sometimes start a project off in Staff view so when that's the case I don't even go to SONAR any more.
If musical notation (read: serious professional level notation) is involved anywhere in a project then depending on what path my production will take and who the intended end user will be then I'll either start in NOTION 3 or Pro Tools 9.
If my end user will be an orchestra etc then I will do the whole project in NOTION3 (a dedicated scoring application). On the other hand if I know that I'll have to write parts and do some composition as well as combine recorded material with MIDI AND that I'll have to provide scores for musicians etc then I'll go to PT9HD, because it's scoring/notation tools are excellent and very comprehensive and it can compete with any other DAW as far as the Audio and MIDI go.
If X1 was as stable as 8.5.3 is and had PT9's notation/staff I'd be a happy camper and could stick with one DAW.
Even Presonus Studio One (which doesn't have a staff editor at all) can import XML files allowing the MIDI data for editing.
+1 May be time to convince my kid in college that he may benefit from an academic discounted version of some DAW software. He is in fact a fine drummer. I'll just have to keep it at home for him (just for safe keeping) 
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slartabartfast
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/16 21:41:13
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I've never used Music XML, but given the limitations of the Staff View, does anyone know if/how that would be an improvement over exporting/importing MIDI? Music XML is just a specification for notation information exchange. There is no magic correctifier built in. So if Sonar's staff view makes the midi look like gobbledygook with dotted 37th notes etc., there is no good reason to believe that a music xml rendition will appear in Sibelius as a work of art. The parsing of performance to notation and vice versa is the hard part. Once that is done music XML just moves the notation to another platform. One would expect that high end midi-aware notation software would be able to do a better job at parsing midi into clear notation than Sonar has managed to do. It is less likely that it will be able to correct badly parsed notation that it receives in music XML format. There would be no reason for the notation software developer to imagine his program would be receiving garbage in an already parsed notation form. In other words, I expect that you would get better results importing midi data than a music XML translation of staff view from Sonar into most notation programs. If you are entering notation into staff view to drive your performance in Sonar (composing in notation if you will), then it should be a lot less prone to error to export your correct notation translated into music XML into a notation prettyprinter. Why you should need to spend half a grand on a program to print from Sonar's staff view is another question altogether.
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noldar12
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation EXPORTED
2011/09/16 22:22:15
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For serious concert output, one would expect to have to use a notation program.
But, again, Sonar's staff view: same old tune: still broken, no real hope of it being fixed. Still can't do something as basic as a triplet.
As has been said repeatedly what is desired is basic functionality, not the ability to do final print quality output.
Honestly, I am starting to get very discouraged after all these years of broken notation, and at this point am very unlikely to upgrade before these issues are fixed.
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