Sonar X2 - Capability to start song at negative number in the timeline?

I hope one of you are going to tell me that the functionality is there but I'm just not aware of it.
 
If you're a guitarist, you know that the first chord of a song is struck well before the actual zero point on the timeline. Since it takes time to strum all 6 strings, the first three sound before zero while the remaining three sound after. Why hasn't Cakewalk built in the capability to start a song at -1 measure (or whatever unit is desired) so that measure numbers will be accurate? I hate having to start my songs on 2 or three just to accomodate the necessary early first strum of the guitar.
 
Is this a capability of Sonar 2 or am I correct that we must compensate by starting the song 1 or 2 measures late, thereby throwing off the actual measure numbers?

It's been discussed ad infinitum but no we can't start with a - measure count in SONAR.
as other have suggested a workaround is the only way to manage the issue of having some empty bars at start.

Not much help when resolving to video etc but that's it folks.

Different users have different opinions on whether the timeline should start at 1, 0 or a negative number.  This was my suggestion, put forward in a previous thread, which I believe would make the problem redundant if implemented:  

Keep the existing timeline as it stands, but have an additional customisable timeline.  This second timeline can be divided up as required by the user to represent different sections of the song, e.g. intro, verses, choruses, bridges or whatever.  Each section can be assigned a colour and a starting number which could be 1 or 0 or some offset.  It could also be assigned a name or descriptive piece of text.  When zoomed out the sections of the song would be obvious by the colours.  When zoomed in it would be easy to home in on, for example, the 6th bar of the 2nd chorus.

That would be a great idea Kev....I've never really worried about the number of measures in a song....I am more concerned with the amount of time.

As GandG posted....markers are a great way of seeing what is where when it comes to sections or pieces of a song or project....but that doesn't solve the fact that some want 0 to start a measure or two into the project.

I can also see where this would be a problem if you are using the metronome "count in".  But I've always used a midi triggered click...which starts the count in at measure 2-4...depending on the tempo of the song.

This again, goes back to the days of needing tape based machines to have time to sync to timecode.  I just never changed my way of thinking and continue with this :) .

You defiantly want to start a project with MIDI a few measures in. It isn't a Sonar issue, its just the fact that synths and midi controlled FX units need to have enough time to respond to banks/patch changes, controller initialization, and any sysex messages in order to set themselves up for a project. Also, the extra measures let midi hardware settle into consistently tracking Midi timing messages.

For instance, my Blofeld needs at least one measure to sync up its arpeggiator to the external midi clock. If I start sending note on messages at time 0, the first few notes generated by the arpeggiator will lag, then catch up to the external midi clock.

But it would be nice to offset the timeline so that you can start a number of measures in, but have the measure/beat start counting at 01:01:00. It makes it easier for musicians to locate the song position on sheet music, which always starts at measure 1.

Just simply allowing for an offset to be applied (say entering -02:01:00) by the user would work great. Having this settable independently for each method of counting (musical, smpte, samples, etc) would be fantastic. Something like that in, say the project preferences, would work great. I'd be in love if it can be applied to screen sets. :)

Bristol_Jonesey


There is another good reason to start all projects at least a measure or 2 in - Midi.

I don't know if this still happens or whether cakewalk cured the problem (sometime after 6PE?) but if your project starts with any kind of Midi, it was common for notes starting at 01:01:000 not to sound. Sonar would take a few msec to get everything buffered properly so the recommended solution was to start at 02:01:000 - or even later.

I've been doing this for so long now it's second nature

Yup. Between this and wanting organic song starts on guitar (during the count in and before the first beat of bar one) is exactly why I came up with the song markers work around solution above. No missed midi notes, no hard truncated analog instruments starts. And, the song markers (as detailed above) make the bar/measure counts easy without having to do math in my head to offset. 

The way i get around this for midi projects that use synths with keyswitches and non-metered field recording intros is by entering a meter change at the beginning of the song to 2/16 or 2/32 and then just back to standard measure after the first short bar.  This is also the only thing that helps me use audio snapping at a later point consistently. 

JoseC.


@gearandguitars Good idea using dummy colored clips to make sections more visible, but why don't you also use proper markers in the timeline?

Using proper markers just always felt a little clumsy for me (personally). The method I've detailed in my link just works better for me because I can see the entire part of the song, and if need to, I can move it as a whole unit while arranging. Using the method I've detailed, the markers actually move with the parts as opposed to be fixed to specific measures and needed to be moved separately. 


I have nothing against Sonar's native marker's, but this particular solution works better for me in that I can have an off set prior to measure one, and easily see/move/navigate around the parts. 


Horses for Courses I suppose. 

gearandguitars

swamptooth


The reason I like to use this kind of workflow is that my markers never seem to paste when I copy a section, but the midi guide clips do. 

I've had the same experience with Sonar's markers. 

I've never understood why there is a markers checkbox in paste special if the markers never paste. I guess this is a situation where understanding is highly overrated. lol.

The reason I like to use this kind of workflow is that my markers never seem to paste when I copy a section, but the midi guide clips do.

I've had the same experience with Sonar's markers. 

I've never understood why there is a markers checkbox in paste special if the markers never paste...

Markers paste ok for me.  I rarely ever need to paste these though, but I have often done it accidentally after forgetting to untick "Markers" in the Copy dialog box.  On the other hand, copying automation is something that doesn't always work for me.