Sonar X2 Notation

musicman100


Please you newcomers, do a search on this topic. It has been begged for and the topic beat to death for many years. Threats, comparisons, boycotts, etc, have all been broached. True integrated scoring is not going to happen.....Just accept it or move on /

Newcomers? I've been a member of this forum longer than you.  Maybe you should be the one to do a search on this topic and read the same question that I posted when X1 came out (http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2119593).  The first reply came from Brandon:
We do realize Staff View is important to a good portion of SONAR users and we do still hope to enhance the Staff View more substantially in the future under the framework of the new Skylight interface.
I don't think that, with a reply like that, it's unreasonable for us to expect notation improvement.
I don't want full notation capabilities but something simple that does work.  Try viewing a triplet rest under staff view.  That's just plain sad.
Sergio

djwayne


Sonar is what it is. Expecting something more and crying about it is like going to a restaurant ordering a steak then complaining because it doesn't come with shrimp too.

Sonar is what it is today. That has no barring on what it will be tomorrow. 


Through the years we as users have asked for and gotten a great many improvements in Sonar. There is no reason for us to stop asking for this improvement simply because it is taking a long time to get. All that means to me is we need to put more pressure on it. 


You sir benefit greatly by our efforts. Would like me to list what I have asked for over the years and gotten?  Everyone that proposes an improvement to Sonar is doing us all a service. Because this issue is a long standing one does not mean it is never going to be implemented as requested. 


Its simply a matter of will on the part of CW to get it done. Judging by CW's responses through the years it is in fact something they know about and would like to address. 


I also strongly believe it is a very important issue. One that should be brought up from time to time until we get it. 


But it will come that I am sure of. The question is when.


 

sergiobklyn

musicman100


Please you newcomers, do a search on this topic. It has been begged for and the topic beat to death for many years. Threats, comparisons, boycotts, etc, have all been broached. True integrated scoring is not going to happen.....Just accept it or move on /

Newcomers? I've been a member of this forum longer than you.  Maybe you should be the one to do a search on this topic and read the same question that I posted when X1 came out (http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2119593).  The first reply came from Brandon:
We do realize Staff View is important to a good portion of SONAR users and we do still hope to enhance the Staff View more substantially in the future under the framework of the new Skylight interface.
I don't think that, with a reply like that, it's unreasonable for us to expect notation improvement.
I don't want full notation capabilities but something simple that does work.  Try viewing a triplet rest under staff view.  That's just plain sad.
Sergio

 
 
John

djwayne


Sonar is what it is. Expecting something more and crying about it is like going to a restaurant ordering a steak then complaining because it doesn't come with shrimp too.

Sonar is what it is today. That has no barring on what it will be tomorrow. 


Through the years we as users have asked for and gotten a great many improvements in Sonar. There is no reason for us to stop asking for this improvement simply because it is taking a long time to get. All that means to me is we need to put more pressure on it. 


You sir benefit greatly by our efforts. Would like me to list what I have asked for over the years and gotten?  Everyone that proposes an improvement to Sonar is doing us all a service. Because this issue is a long standing one does not mean it is never going to be implemented as requested. 


Its simply a matter of will on the part of CW to get it done. Judging by CW's responses through the years it is in fact something they know about and would like to address. 


I also strongly believe it is a very important issue. One that should be brought up from time to time until we get it. 


But it will come that I am sure of. The question is when.

THANK YOU John
THANK YOU Sergio
 
So better said than anything I have.....musicman100 is a good guy with a good point tho 

The thing some folks need to understand is yes the forum is a great place for us to learn and chat but it also serves a HUGE purpose to Cakewalk and its parent company Roland. This is pretty much the best form of free market research you can get. If everyone just clammed up and were afraid to voice an opinion lest *gasp* someone may find that view contrary to their own you would end up with products that are based on blind boot licking that serve no real purpose or function to anyone in the real world. Cake gave us this forum to voice our opinions and connect with each other. Not to placate their egos. As John said, when people here speak their minds the products get better. That is a good thing. Peace.

Sergio and everyone who wants better integrated Notation for X2... It's not happening just like I have to accept that X1e isn't happening. We all want something and somethings improved but it doesn't mean we'll get what we ask for. Notation isn't high on their list of features unless they are just taking their time and plan on rolling it out in a future version. Heck, all of the Expanded features were meant to be X2 features from the get go but they rolled those features out as an upgrade and continued work on the remaining features of X2 because they weren't ready to take the cake out of the oven. They never planned on continuing to do an Expanded version, it was solely for X1 and they already knew it would be back to the 3 versions.

  Eventually I tired of waiting for notation improvements and after staying with Sonar from version 2 right through to 8.1, I jumped ship to Reaper. But wait, I hear you say. Reaper has no notation functionality at all!. Absolutely true, but there was no reason for persevering with Sonar's less than stable audio engine and quirkiness as a VST host any longer. I swapped these for rock-solid stability and decided to do any notation stuff externally. Every few years I pop back to the forum when a new version of Sonar is announced, in the (vain) hope that Cakewalk will actually do something about this - I'd definitely upgrade to a new version of Sonar if - finally - the integrated notation was actually improved beyond the point of marginally usable. It mystifies me utterly that Cake ignore this area. It's like having a word processor that only has one font and in capitals only, doesn't do justification and can't insert page breaks. I can only conjecture that Cake's target market (in their marketing people's minds, at any rate) are teenage rap artists and bedroom tinkerers with a keyboard in the corner on which are sticky labels with note names, who believe that, if only they had a perfectly accurate emulation of some vintage console channel strip, they'd be making hit records. That's utterly condescending to the majority of *real* users, of course - and, by the way I mean no offence to teenage rap artists - I just infer that, quite rightly, they don't really need notation - but I just cannot figure out any other rational explanation for the current situation.

It's not a matter of "bootlicking" it's a matter of appreciating what is there. Sonar works well for me and my needs. I don't need notation and I don't want to be forced into paying for it or the developement of it.  You guys have been bashing Sonar over this for quite some time. It's time to get a life.  Sonar, love it or leave it.

djwayne


It's not a matter of "bootlicking" it's a matter of appreciating what is there. Sonar works well for me and my needs. I don't need notation and I don't want to be forced into paying for it or the developement of it.  You guys have been bashing Sonar over this for quite some time. It's time to get a life.  Sonar, love it or leave it.

This is a joke, right? 


In case it isn't  the last line is so cliche that it reads like a joke. 


I wont comment on the other ideas held within your post except to say, how selfish.  

Why should I have to pay for software developement that YOU want ??  I would prefer Cakewalk spends their developement money on stability and new features. Notation is something I don't need.

You're asking me to chip in and pay for this developement. Forget it !! Maybe you'd like to buy me some software ?? Of course you wouldn't. But I'm being selfish ????

Let's look at it this way...Let's say Cakewalk does develope notation software and makes it so it is integrated, how many of you would pay the extra $500 that it costs ??  You think software grows on trees ?? It costs money to develope it and Cakewalk would have to recoupe that somehow...


Look if I want notation I'll buy a notation program or use one of the free ones out there. But I don't use it !!

djwayne


Why should I have to pay for software developement that YOU want ??  I would prefer Cakewalk spends their developement money on stability and new features. Notation is something I don't need.

You're asking me to chip in and pay for this developement. Forget it !! Maybe you'd like to buy me some software ?? Of course you wouldn't. But I'm being selfish ????

You've been paying for it all along but not getting much from it. If it were improved it may prove to be worth what you contribute. It also might bring forth new users that would share the cost and thus bring it down.


That assumes that your part in it is measurable. 






 

djwayne


Let's look at it this way...Let's say Cakewalk does develope notation software and makes it so it is integrated, how many of you would pay the extra $500 that it costs ??  You think software grows on trees ?? It costs money to develope it and Cakewalk would have to recoupe that somehow...


Look if I want notation I'll buy a notation program or use one of the free ones out there. But I don't use it !!

You do know that it is already in there. Its called the Staff View. Take a look at it. 

Yes I'm well aware of the current staff view, and that is more than what I need.

I've invested in cakewalk products since version 1. I've spent years developing templates, drum maps and developed workflow strategies without even counting the number of projects created during the last decade or so..

Really appreciate the advice to leave Sonar..  That really does provide me with a 'fix'.

The more things you demand from Sonar, the higher the price will be.

djwayne


The more things you demand from Sonar, the higher the price will be.

Then using your own philosophy I think they should get rid of Pro Channel only because I don't use it, I shouldn't pay extra for it & it's development.


Doesn't make sense , does it?

djwayne

Look if I want notation I'll buy a notation program or use one of the free ones out there. But I don't use it !!

It is not (only) about notation. If it were, I don't think as many would be upset about it. It is about using an existing view (the staff view) for composition, just as many use the piano roll, etc. Fixing an existing feature that is broken and hasn't worked right for years, while other features (step sequencer, matrix view) have been added. (As many have said - just exporting a MIDI file (or an XML file) to a notation program does not provide the same accuracy/workflow advantage of being able to compose right in the DAW.)
You might not listen to your radio in your car - but you expect it to work when you turn it on, right?

djwayne


The more things you demand from Sonar, the higher the price will be.

Where did you get that idea from? 


It seems to trend in the opposite way. Let me see if I recall Sonar 1 XL had very few things in common with X1 as far as features. It didn't even support VST or ASIO. No audio snap. No making on the fly buses, meaning to add a buss one had to restart Sonar.  The feature list in Sonar X1 would overwhelm Sonar 1 XL. Yet the price has gone down drastically both for upgrades and for new purchases. This is a fact. You have no evidence to support your position. 


It seems by any measure you are more than just wrong in your assessment but obtusely wrong.   


Making things up is no way to persuade others to your view point. All it does is destroy your credibility.





  

Another double post. 

I would prefer Cakewalk spends their developement money on stability and new features

Would this be new features you want - and maybe others don't ?






Garry

Well I have no say in it, you'll have to talk to the developers at Cakewalk. They'll be the ones to decide on what program features to develope.

So you're on you own guys.

Well thank you for your support.

thebiglongy


Perhaps you should get a petition on the forum lol. Get all members to agree NOT to upgrade until they give clear information on what if anything is happening with the Notation abilities of Sonar. It's not as if this is a new issue, I've watched this come up over and over again yet nothing done, a little show of solidarity for those who compose using notation wouldn't go a miss. I for one, will happily hold out to support those who need notation (don't use it myself).

 
 
I absolutely will NOT boycott upgrading Sonar over this issue.

Whenever this issue comes up the trolls come out of the woodwork.  They are appalled at the idea of Cakewalk working on anything they personally don't need and the don't understand the roll of notation in a DAW.  Many times they are 12 year old kids and the conversation progresses accordingly.

vintagevibe


Whenever this issue comes up the trolls come out of the woodwork.  They are appalled at the idea of Cakewalk working on anything they personally don't need and the don't understand the roll of notation in a DAW.  Many times they are 12 year old kids and the conversation progresses accordingly.

 
 
And who do you think you are ?? Beethoven ?? You want to score music like Beethoven ?? Well get a piece of paper and a pencil and get to work.

djwayne

vintagevibe


Whenever this issue comes up the trolls come out of the woodwork.  They are appalled at the idea of Cakewalk working on anything they personally don't need and the don't understand the roll of notation in a DAW.  Many times they are 12 year old kids and the conversation progresses accordingly.

 
 
And who do you think you are ?? Beethoven ?? You want to score music like Beethoven ?? Well get a piece of paper and a pencil and get to work.

I don't use it much myself but, seriously DJ, get a life.....

djwayne

vintagevibe


Whenever this issue comes up the trolls come out of the woodwork.  They are appalled at the idea of Cakewalk working on anything they personally don't need and the don't understand the roll of notation in a DAW.  Many times they are 12 year old kids and the conversation progresses accordingly.

 
 
And who do you think you are ?? Beethoven ?? You want to score music like Beethoven ?? Well get a piece of paper and a pencil and get to work.

Point illustrated.

Here ya go, this is for all you Beethoven wannabee's out there...... a freebee just for you... get your pencil ready...

http://www.8notes.com/school/resources/manuscript/

vintagevibe


Whenever this issue comes up the trolls come out of the woodwork.  They are appalled at the idea of Cakewalk working on anything they personally don't need and the don't understand the roll of notation in a DAW.  Many times they are 12 year old kids and the conversation progresses accordingly.

Correct, then again sometimes the 12 year old kids have  more common sense than some of the old farts.

.

What is really funny is that if the bakers wanted to they could have just left out staff view entirely...but they did not ..for how many versions of Sonar?

If you don't need it, fine. Let those who would like some improvements to what appears to be seen by some as an appendix have a say here....

Don't feed the troll.

Yeah, I don't get DJ's vehement objection to SV enhancements.  Unless one uses every single feature of SONAR, one is always "paying" for features that they don't and may never use.  That's just the reality of software development in general.
 
Personally I do think CW should fix/improve what's already there in the SV, just like any other view or feature - nothing should be permanently excluded.   However, if that means a rewrite at some level and a good chunk of time, then I can accept that it would have to be balanced with everything else on the development schedule... which is always a system of tradeoffs. 
 

I don't object to SV enhancements, I object to people bashing Sonar because of it. I object to a boycott of Sonar to force the issue.

I'm not gonna bash Cakewalk over notation. They have a fine product and provide great bang for the buck software. If you're not happy with it, too bad. There's probaly no pleasing some people no matter what you do.

John

djwayne


The more things you demand from Sonar, the higher the price will be.

Where did you get that idea from? 


It seems to trend in the opposite way. Let me see if I recall Sonar 1 XL had very few things in common with X1 as far as features. It didn't even support VST or ASIO. No audio snap. No making on the fly buses, meaning to add a buss one had to restart Sonar.  The feature list in Sonar X1 would overwhelm Sonar 1 XL. Yet the price has gone down drastically both for upgrades and for new purchases. This is a fact. You have no evidence to support your position. 


It seems by any measure you are more than just wrong in your assessment but obtusely wrong.   


Making things up is no way to persuade others to your view point. All it does is destroy your credibility.





 

"Making things up is no way to persuade others to your view point." I gather by this statement you don't watch fauxe (fox) or any news networks (fox is the worst for it though). It's sad to say that this is the norm for what people believe.

He really does come across as someone who watches Fox, doesn't he? lulz...

Who's bashing Sonar over the SV?

We are saying that we would like them to improve it! How is that bashing?

Go on, keep having your notation tantrums.... next week it'll be something else you'll have tantrums about....wah, wah , wah......

@Guitarpima... Check out the Pro Tools vs. Sonar thread. He is unhinged. Just ignore him. Seriously he'll start freaking out if you question his logic. I also find it amusing that he'll defend a large corporation but treat all of us individuals like garbage. Fox news indeed.

The only thing I'm having a tantrum about is why I can't use Sonar to find fish while fishing. Wah wah wah. I want to find the fish! Wah wah wah!!!

djwayne


I don't object to SV enhancements, I object to people bashing Sonar because of it. I object to a boycott of Sonar to force the issue.

I'm not gonna bash Cakewalk over notation. They have a fine product and provide great bang for the buck software. If you're not happy with it, too bad. There's probaly no pleasing some people no matter what you do.

I see where you are coming from, and I cringed when I saw the call for a "boycott" too. I am not going to boycott cake/SONAR either. Hell no. I love X1, but I am still looking forward to X2. I really want them to improve the staff view though.
 

Yes I'm looking foraward to X2 also, can't wait to get it, I'll take whatever improvents are there. I'm just not gonna come on the forum and wah wah wah whine about anything in particular.

Hey Beepster, GFYS. Nevermind, you already did.

Interesting thread. I think the real question for Cake to ask themselves, from a purely business perspective, isn't how many current users would benefit from notation but how many new users they would attract.  It is no secret that when programs are used in grade schools, high schools or colleges, in many cases those programs develop a loyal user base.  People are naturally attracted to familiarity so someone using Product X in college is probably going to keep using it later.
 
It seems that several people have made the point that educators are not choosing Sonar due to lack of notation capabilities or acceptable integration with industry leaders. If Cake increases their user base then everyone benefits because Cake has a bigger user base and more development funds to continue improvements to the product.   There was a company called Autocad that this strategy worked very well for.  It seems to me that everyone is a winner in that case.,,whether you personally need notation or not......  Cake certainly know how to do this, they have the Staff View for one, and several years ago they spun off and sold their notation software (I think it is called Geniesoft)
 
Now back to Bill O'Reilly;)
 
Regards

Beepster


I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.

PT guys told me last week that Avid had bought Sibelius and integrated into Protools, or were working on it, it was unclear. We were at the coffee shop...

@Michael Five... Interesting. Maybe Cakewalk could contract Avid to develop a Staff View add on. jk... ;-p

Michael Five

Beepster


I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.

PT guys told me last week that Avid had bought Sibelius and integrated into Protools, or were working on it, it was unclear. We were at the coffee shop...

AFAIK When Avid bought Sibelius they eventually took some of the code into PT version 8 which is an absolutely stunning feature. BUT, it's not the full version of Sibelius embedded in PT, it's a very cut down version but the Pro Tools notation view runs in circles around Sonar's Staff View. No wonder, Sibelius made it! But Avid still wants to sell Sibelius to Pro Tools users so it's a cut down version.
 
You can see the notation view in this video and it's pretty sweet. I'm good with using Sibelius next to Sonar but it would be cool to have something simmilar in Sonar as well, either built in or as an add on.
 
I actually really like the Add on idea. A third party company specializing in notation could make it.

djwayne


The more things you demand from Sonar, the higher the price will be.

The more people Sonar supplies with a satisfactory DAW, the lower the price will be. 

ProjectM

Michael Five

Beepster


I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.

PT guys told me last week that Avid had bought Sibelius and integrated into Protools, or were working on it, it was unclear. We were at the coffee shop...

AFAIK When Avid bought Sibelius they eventually took some of the code into PT version 8 which is an absolutely stunning feature. BUT, it's not the full version of Sibelius embedded in PT, it's a very cut down version but the Pro Tools notation view runs in circles around Sonar's Staff View. No wonder, Sibelius made it! But Avid still wants to sell Sibelius to Pro Tools users so it's a cut down version.
 
You can see the notation view in this video and it's pretty sweet. I'm good with using Sibelius next to Sonar but it would be cool to have something simmilar in Sonar as well, either built in or as an add on.
 
I actually really like the Add on idea. A third party company specializing in notation could make it.

Enjoyed the video. 
This would be a very welcome add on for myself.
I've used Sonars' notation over the years & it's fine for a quick scratch chart.
Always have to hand edit it afterwards though, wish it handled transcribing better.

Have fun with your boycott, as for me I'm buying X2 as soon as it becomes available.

carl

ProjectM

Michael Five

Beepster


I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.

PT guys told me last week that Avid had bought Sibelius and integrated into Protools, or were working on it, it was unclear. We were at the coffee shop...

AFAIK When Avid bought Sibelius they eventually took some of the code into PT version 8 which is an absolutely stunning feature. BUT, it's not the full version of Sibelius embedded in PT, it's a very cut down version but the Pro Tools notation view runs in circles around Sonar's Staff View. No wonder, Sibelius made it! But Avid still wants to sell Sibelius to Pro Tools users so it's a cut down version.

You can see the notation view in this video and it's pretty sweet. I'm good with using Sibelius next to Sonar but it would be cool to have something simmilar in Sonar as well, either built in or as an add on.

I actually really like the Add on idea. A third party company specializing in notation could make it.

Enjoyed the video. 
This would be a very welcome add on for myself.
I've used Sonars' notation over the years & it's fine for a quick scratch chart.
Always have to hand edit it afterwards though, wish it handled transcribing better.

Same here. So I guess I'm in the camp that want better Staff View. But, it's no show stopper for me. I'm thinking that with Sonar's excellent feature set and brilliant sound design and composing features, a proper notation feature would make it a BRUTAL tool for composers as well. Especially for those who compose with musical training and create a finished product. And of course for those who need to print simple scores.
 
Well, I'm not on the fence waiting for it. But one can dream can't he I'm still looking forward to see what/if they've done to it in X2. I already thought it was an improvement to work with it in X1

That PT notation looks awesome. The real time transcribing part was crazy. I'm curious, and maybe some of you Sibelus users can fill me in... will Sibelus control synths within X1? Does it work well?

Beepster


That PT notation looks awesome. The real time transcribing part was crazy. I'm curious, and maybe some of you Sibelus users can fill me in... will Sibelus control synths within X1? Does it work well?

I'm speculating (now that my sanity has returned), but I'd guess you can get midi out of Sibelius and use that to drive sonar synths...

I export my Finale files as midi and then use Sonar to open them. You have to use the "open with"  command by right clicking on the midi file so all the information contained in the midi file remains intact. If you import the midi file, you'll lose some of it such as the tempo, markers and any other data.

I used to post in these "improve staff view" threads, then I realized these threads have been going on for several versions with no real improvement from Cake.  I gave up and bought Sibelius, which I eventually needed for what I do anyhow.  

I went to one of those "meet a rep" events and spoke with a Cake employee.  I pointed out to him, if Cake improved their notation they could market Sonar to the ever increasing, "composer" crowd.  Currently, it would seem Logic and Cubase has much of that "crowd".  The Cake rep explained that was "not their target audience." 

This was 2 years ago, maybe things have changed?  I don't know, but with the bad notation and horrible video format support, I have to conclude he was telling me the truth.  I really like Sonar, (much more than ProTools) so I bought Sibelius for Notation (great choice!) and Vegas for video (was needed anyhow)  and use Sonar as my favorite DAW software. 

One day, we will have a Vegas/Sibelius/Sonar type program all in one, but its not today.  SV improvements would still make my job easier and alot of us happy, but the writing has been on the wall version after version, Cake is not going to update it anytime soon.  Sometimes it's better to accept the loss and find a different way to get the job done. 

I tell you, whichever company makes the Notation/DAW/Video program is going to put a big dent in the market.  Considering the power of todays computers, I don't think the all-in-one program is too far off.

Count me in for staff view improvements, please.

It seems to me that it is one of the few areas that hasn't been improved, bar a few menu rearrangements.

I see arguments for people saying that not enough Sonar users use staff view and so wouldn't be economically viable. How about attracting new users on the back of a comprehensive staff view? Economic sense? A possibility.

Just my thoughts.

synkrotron

Benny Bear


How about attracting new users on the back of a comprehensive staff view? Economic sense?

Surely this would depend on how much Cakewalk would charge for improved staff view functionality. As I said a few posts above, if Sibelius can charge £460 for something that is primarily "just" a scoring package, how much more would Sonar cost in order to implement the same? They certainly would be able to afford to keep the costs within what they charge at the moment, and it would have to be an additional feature.


Sonar X2 Composer Suite


Which is still probably not a bad idea. Cakewalk would then have to determine how much take-up of such a product would be.


If, as some have tried to suggest here, Cakewalk/Roland only want to target recording engineers, mixers, mastering peeps, bedroom composers, and not include professional composers who feel they require proper classical notation, then it just isn't going to happen.


I would be surprised if Cakewalk/Roland haven't researched this in quite some detail. They must have some kind of idea on how many will ditch their DAW in favour of an all singing, all dancing scoring/recording/mastering DAW?

Why do you say CW will charge extra for something that is already included?

What is with this extra charging stuff?