Sonar X2 Notation

sergiobklyn


Hi,
I could not find any mention of notation improvement in Sonar X2.  Does anybody know if there are any changes in the notation engine?
Thanks,
Sergio  

I will not be upgrading to X2 unless we can at the very least have the staff view restored to having the notation functions found in pre X1 Sonar.  Thankfully, Sonar Plus did that for X1 and I was able to use it because of that.  However, now that Benstat works for Cakewalk Sonar Plus will not be available as a second party program. I can only hope that Cakewalk will use his talents in this area.  In repsonse to those who say only a few people want staff view improvements one has only to look at how many people have read this thread. 

sergiobklyn


Hi,
I could not find any mention of notation improvement in Sonar X2.  Does anybody know if there are any changes in the notation engine?
Thanks,
Sergio  

I will not be upgrading to X2 unless we can at the very least have the staff view restored to having the notation functions found in pre X1 Sonar.  Thankfully, Sonar Plus did that for X1 and I was able to use it because of that.  However, now that Benstat works for Cakewalk Sonar Plus will not be available as a second party program. I can only hope that Cakewalk will use his talents in this area.  In repsonse to those who say only a few people want staff view improvements one has only to look at how many people have read this thread. 

ducatibruce2

Jimbo 88


I have to ask also,  why do people asking for staff view improvements get attacked and told to quit whining while  no one says anything to those asking for color customization???  

Maybe we should ask for colour customisation in SV eg I'd like to be able to make triplets show up as a different colour ;)

Bill51


Is Music XML export only, or will we be able to import also?

Export only  - which is useless if SV is not good enough to use in the first place.

  Just a response to Brett. Protools 10 (the version which runs natively) has a 32 bit floating point sound engine, sorry mate but you're totally wrong there, get your facts right before dissing someone elses product. And it's not a piece of crap, just because you can't figure out how to use it? I've put PT 10 side by side with Sonar X1 and compared the sound engines at 32 bit floating point while recording and rendering the same material, and there is NO discernable difference in sound quality between the two DAWS, they both sound exactly the same. I did the tests using top of the line AD converters and mics, like Mytek AD / Beezneez hand made mics going into an RME PCIe card through the AES interface. I recorded a martin D16 acoustic guitar in an acoustically treated studio. No matter how I compared the samples from the recordings between the 2 DAWS, they sounded identical. Where do people get their facts from, the inside of a public lavatory wall? Always wonder about some of the disinformation being spread on this forum.

Bluexrysalis


  Just a response to Brett. Protools 10 (the version which runs natively) has a 32 bit floating point sound engine, sorry mate but you're totally wrong there, get your facts right before dissing someone elses product. And it's not a piece of crap, just because you can't figure out how to use it? I've put PT 10 side by side with Sonar X1 and compared the sound engines at 32 bit floating point while recording and rendering the same material, and there is NO discernable difference in sound quality between the two DAWS, they both sound exactly the same. I did the tests using top of the line AD converters and mics, like Mytek AD / Beezneez hand made mics going into an RME PCIe card through the AES interface. I recorded a martin D16 acoustic guitar in an acoustically treated studio. No matter how I compared the samples from the recordings between the 2 DAWS, they sounded identical. Where do people get their facts from, the inside of a public lavatory wall? Always wonder about some of the disinformation being spread on this forum.

You've been using PT for 2 months and you're suddenly an expert? Well, I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about and I doubt you'll make the effort to "get your facts right".

Maybe someone who hasn't been insulted by you may deign to explain the PT fixed point issues to you, but not me.

I guess that doing some change on the staff view will interact with the other view like Piano roll and event list etc...That must be the reason to let that the way it is.  I will give a try with the XML thing to export in my FINALE program, when I'll upgrade to X2

Now that this thread has been ongoing for a while I'm gonna bring the idea of a paid notation add on that integrates into Sonar again. That really might be something that could get the company moving on it so if more people bandy the idea about maybe it will become a reality. To put it another way if they are going to LOSE money updating the SV maybe a paid tool could make them some money or at least allow them to break even and keep folks using Sonar and/or draw in new customers. As I said it would be something I'd be interesting in paying for because I'm really hammering out my traditional music theory and having a stable and in depth tool within my DAW would help with that. Many others also expressed they would be into it too so yeah... let's keep that discussion open.

Beepster, I can't even emphasize how much I agree with you so I'll just give it a good old +1

@ProjectM... You and I seem rather like minded individuals. It's always a pleasure chatting with you. The nice thing about this plan is they could charge for it until everything is coded and future ready and then just toss it into future versions for free after they've paid off the initial cost. It seems many people here have the opinion that the reason there aren't more people complaining about the staff view is that those people have either left Sonar or never hopped on board in the first place because of the SV. Cakewalk just might swell the Sonar ranks if they fix it because really it is an awesome program for the price. Cheers.

I suggest a prepay plan for the notation. $25.00 through your Cakewalk account seems fair. This money only goes toward developing the staff view of Sonar. This way they could also sell it as an expansion pack when it is ready for more money and then it could be integrated in the next Sonar release say X3. I'd send over the money tonight if they did it. If there isn't enough takers after a certain period of time just leave the money in my account to use for something else. I would will be willing to give it a shot. Come on Cakewalk how about a response. What do you have to lose? Ed

Another idea for a better staff view: to wit, Cakewalk publishes an application program interface (API) into Sonar and lets 3rd party developers build a better staff view. While they're at it, 3rd parties could engineer a new script engine and add other UI features that we don't even know we desperately need (until we see them in action). I'll bet some of those 3rd party developers are members of this forum. (Heck, I had my own custom macro interface hack communicating with a version of Pro Audio many moons ago.)

CW has already opened up the ProChannel API to 3rd parties, enticing them to write PC-friendly plugins. And of course, there are all sorts of supported hooks for hardware interfaces, so a set of hooks into the Staff View for custom apps doesn't seem so far-fetched to me. (Of course, a fully-functional SV doesn't seem far-fetched to me either, so shows what I know....)

So, four strategic-direction suggestions so far for Cakewalk:
1) (Current) CW repeats its intention to do something about SV someday.

2) CW "enhances" staff view as part of the Sonar package, to make it as effective for note manipulation as piano roll view.

3) CW sells an add-on SV module (call it Sonar Staffworthy Edition). I'm buying (as are others in this thread).

4) CW publishes a set of hooks into Track view for 3rd parties to add other views, staff included, or widgets or "apps" or whatamacallems.

5) (Ooops, over my limit.) Okay, wild and crazy, but maybe CW open-sources the Staff View code and lets users have at it. Lots of dots to connect here, but this is a dream thread, right?

any updates shown in the webinar?

Elffin


any updates shown in the webinar?

None.  They briefly viewed some notes in Staff View but there was no mention of improvements.  I asked twice about it but got no reply
 

I went ahead and did the Pre-Sale anyways.  The new stuff looks pretty cool.

hmmm.. not even a proper screenshot eh...

BTw guys -  I love the idea of paying for SV improvements.... go get some of the Sibelius guys here in the UK who were laid off by Avid.

Elffin


hmmm.. not even a proper screenshot eh...

BTw guys -  I love the idea of paying for SV improvements.... go get some of the Sibelius guys here in the UK who were laid off by Avid.

I'll have to wait for the webinar to be available on youtube - If they showed the SV for even a moment, we should at least be able to see if they incorporated any of Benstat's Sonar Plus improvements.

sergiobklyn


I went ahead and did the Pre-Sale anyways.  The new stuff looks pretty cool.

TRRAAAAIIITORRRRR!!!!!!!!

I would pay some dollars for a staff view expansion. Not that many dollars though. I'm figuring about fifty of dollars max, but preferably less. I'm pretty sure Cakewalk could profit from it. I think it would be fair to charge for a decent staff view because Sonar gives you so much more bang for your buck than other DAW's anyway.

keith

sergiobklyn


I went ahead and did the Pre-Sale anyways.  The new stuff looks pretty cool.

TRRAAAAIIITORRRRR!!!!!!!!

I'm struggling with this.
 
I have not seen the webinar, nor do I expect to see the X2 SV in action anytime soon.
 
X2 would have to be outrageously good (features which don't exist in other DAW's) in order for me to upgrade if there were no attention paid to the SV.
 
The rub is weighing a functional SV against the new features of X2.
 
The importance of the SV on the spectrum of DAW features determines which direction each individual goes.
 
All this is obvious.  But if SV IS IMPORTANT, then holding off on the upgrade allows you to vote with your $$$ or lack thereof.
 
 
 
 

I've been a faithful Cakewalk client for a long time (since Cakewalk 1.0) and for the first time I've seriously considered switching to Pro Tools 10.  I'm waiting to see how Avid handles the Sibelius mess before I make a decision.  In the meantime I'll continue using Sonar X.
Serge

pbognar

Elffin


hmmm.. not even a proper screenshot eh...

BTw guys -  I love the idea of paying for SV improvements.... go get some of the Sibelius guys here in the UK who were laid off by Avid.

I'll have to wait for the webinar to be available on youtube - If they showed the SV for even a moment, we should at least be able to see if they incorporated any of Benstat's Sonar Plus improvements.

It appears from the X2 webinar that SV is unchanged from X1.  This will be first release upgrade since Sonar 2 that will skip for now.  Other then that X2 looks to have some great features I don't need.

sergiobklyn


I've been a faithful Cakewalk client for a long time (since Cakewalk 1.0) and for the first time I've seriously considered switching to Pro Tools 10.  I'm waiting to see how Avid handles the Sibelius mess before I make a decision.  In the meantime I'll continue using Sonar X.
Serge

Us long time users have basically been dumped.  It's a lesson I keep having to learn.  Never have any loyalty to any company.  My years of loyalty to and advocating for Cakwalk have been thrown under the bus.  Cakewalk used to listen to customers but I suppose that was a casualty of Roland taking over.

Elffin


hmmm.. not even a proper screenshot eh...

BTw guys -  I love the idea of paying for SV improvements.... go get some of the Sibelius guys here in the UK who were laid off by Avid.

Here is the X2 Staff View in all its glory
 

 
It doesn't even contain Benstat's Sonar Plus goodness.
 
I do believe that Cakewalk may be trying to send me away. 
 
 

Who needs Notation, a centuries old proven universal tradition, when they can have drag-and-drop-autosnap-convolution-based-step-sequenced-sfz-driven-playtoys?
 
Of course I'm joking, I find alot of the newer features fun and even useable, but alas, disappointment on the Staff View front yet again.

pbognar

Elffin


hmmm.. not even a proper screenshot eh...

BTw guys -  I love the idea of paying for SV improvements.... go get some of the Sibelius guys here in the UK who were laid off by Avid.

Here is the X2 Staff View in all its glory

Where are all the note entry tools?

B

Yep,  The cake people are going to regret one day not upgrading the Staff View.  It might take a couple of years,  but it will come back to haunt them.

Bad business move....

@Brett they did some work on the smart tool so they are probably hidden by default or the guys just hid them because that's how they had things set up. I'd imagine they would reappear through the View tab or launching the HUD.

blerg... I think it's called the HUD. The little tool bar that pops up when you hit your middle mouse button.

I did see Noel respond in another thread that Cakewalk respond to the feature request..  so can all of you good people again send in feature requests..


But ....
Why is it so difficult to place music value icons in the SV like Benstat did????  Ben did this when he wasn't involved with Cake... so its a decision by Cakewalk not to include it... 

I just feel its like talking with somebody with their hands on their ears.... 

Elffin


I did see Noel respond in another thread that Cakewalk respond to the feature request..  so can all of you good people again send in feature requests..


But ....
Why is it so difficult to place music value icons in the SV like Benstat did????  Ben did this when he wasn't involved with Cake... so its a decision by Cakewalk not to include it... 

I just feel its like talking with somebody with their hands on their ears.... 

Where's the link with feature request?
Thanks,
Serge

http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/FeatureRequest.asp

Thanks

To make an idea, take a look to the Noel Borthwick 's avatar.  There's a big message...LOL  The cup of coffee on the music sheet!!!  There not that important!

Just joking!

LOL

NOTATION IS VERY IMPORTANT TO SOME OF US!!
 
I use to like editing using events, piano roll and notation (after some quantizing to get rid of some un-needed tied 16 & 32th notes etc). I take it notation would only be available on MIDI tracks. So, does bounce to clips convert audio to MIDI where you can see, edit and print notation? If so, don't we already have notation included in Sonar unless everyone is referring to character add in's - i.e. pedal or cresendos etc.? Or has that changed with X1/X2?
 
Those of you who do not read music, kudos to you if you are playing more than I, IV, V. It takes a little genius, feel and a lot of memory to depend on, just as a jazz musician does with improvisation. However, if also classically trained, composing and trying to write a score, Sonar would be the way to go if good NOTATION were included without having to buy an expensive third party program. You can hear what it should sound "like" from all the different instruments and features available, when you print out each individual part transposed for that instrument in the proper key and clef to put in front of a live or studio orchestra. To print out a lead sheet with chords transposed say for an Eb Alto sax would be very useful to jazz players. Has anyone looked into the Nashville Numbering Notation System used in studio recording and would that be available for composers using Sonar? (Similar to a lead sheet or chord chart but with numbers so you can easily play it in any key.) I have not played with X1 Producer Expanded too much yet. I will move to X2 Producer and do not know what Sonar has improved on or digressed to in Notation as I have not used Cakewalk since the preDAW days of just MIDI when my 486 b/w laptop with Cakewalk Professional for Windows 2.0 MIDI finally died a few years ago. (I just kept buying the upgrades but the hardware requirement always seemed too expensive to upgrade to until now.) I printed out notation using my first Cakewalk program on my Atari ST1040. It was a different file format so when I went to Windows, even though it was printed on a dot matrix printer, I was able to read the score and record the parts quickly again instead of picking out the parts measure by measure, part by part. (Didn't know about direct MIDI to MIDI transfer until after...)

 So, does bounce to clips convert audio to MIDI where you can see, edit and print notation?

Nope.


Bounce to clips will a) consolidate all your shorter clips into one big one b) render any Audiosnapped material c) convert any arpeggiated Midi chords to their distinct notes d) merge any layered Midi/Audio data into one clip (but doesn't remove the layer

To each his own, but notation is to music as writing and the alphabet are to language.  We can discuss what features need to be included, but it is critical that a program for music creation be able to display music as notation and allow editing in that view.

Sonar does that but it has some very serious flaws.

jsg

SToons

Jimbo 88


Hey Jerry,  great post.

Wouldn't it be cool if X2 had staff view like Sonar 7 (plus a few extras!)??.

Man, that would make my life soooo much better.   

Out of curiosity, how do you find the Staff View in Sonar X1 differs from Sonar 7?

Sonar 7 has the note value selections more accesible, right on the toolbar, always visible, the track pane on the staff view is linked to the active MIDI track, so you can hear a particular instrument by clicking on it without having to leave the staff view, X1 doesn't have that, either by error or design.   Sonar 7 also does not have the bug where you select a note length and you get the wrong note as in X1.  This seems to happen when you go from inputting triplets to non-triplets or visa versa.  
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
 

As you stated, there are SV bugs or loss of functionality in X1 (and probably X2) introduced since Sonar 7.


Then there is functionality which never has never existed in the SV which people would like to see implemented.  There is a post about communicating feature requests for the SV, however, it would take much longer to see any new functionality implemented in X2 (if ever).


Perhaps if you could provide specific bullet points of bugs or loss of functionality introduced since Sonar 7, then WE COULD ALL submit bug reports, and at least have a chance of seeing these things fixed in X2, or more likely, with a patch.

Thanks.

PS - I noticed in the X2 webinar that PRV has got some duration and snap icons in the upper right of the PRV - why don't those exist in the SV?  Or am I missing something - are you supposed to use the HUD in SV?
 

Great thread here! I guess I have to chip in, for whatever that's worth.

The very fact that I cannot select the notes that are beyond the staves is enough to drive me crazy. I don't necessary use notation to sequence because of realism issues. But it's crucial for:

1. Editing of individual notes. (yes, that can be done in PRV, but not my preference)
2. Global view of my arrangement and composition. I need to see everything to get my harmony, counterpoint etc right. It's not just listening, but also seeing it. You can't visualize it in PRV. As it is, it's a pain to my workflow as I have to resort to paper for certain sections of my music just to see my arrangements. 

The only time I've tried using PRV was more than 10 years ago (on Cakewalk Professional 7).  It's too limited for me and I've never used it since. PRV is basically a useless feature for me. I don't need notation at the level of Sibelius - I just need it to be improved. That's not too much a request, I feel.

cheez



2. Global view of my arrangement and composition. I need to see everything to get my harmony, counterpoint etc right. It's not just listening, but also seeing it. You can't visualize it in PRV. As it is, it's a pain to my workflow as I have to resort to paper for certain sections of my music just to see my arrangements. 

That's exactly what I do. Some parts I write via a midi keyboard, others via the PRV, but I always have the staff view open because that's what music looks like to me, we can immediately see a harmony error.


The lyrics view is something that doesn't get much mention here, it's important to me. It's totally broken with a bug that Cakewalk won't even admit to, a simple work around is to keep the track as a single clip. I'm still angry that Cakewalk support never told me that, I discovered it by accident on this forum.

Ok - my fault.  

In my last post with an image of the PRV in X2, I mistakenly assumed that there was a separate duation and snap and button for the PRV.  It is actually a separate Snap setting in PRV from the Global Snap setting which was introduced in X1c.
Of course one could ask why the SV doesn't have the option of sharing this separate PRV snap setting, but is suppose the bakers would have you use the HUD while editing in the SV.  

I would prefer to see the note durations, fill durations, trim durations, snap settings, and a scrub button displayed in the header frame of the SV.  (Note draw duration icons were included in Benstat's Sonar Plus add-on in both the SV and PRV, so I can't imagine that this would be impossible).  

Actually, it would be kind of cool if the HUD / smart tool could take on SV related functionality while in the SV.

I'm not asking SONAR to be a very good notation program.  We all know what it takes to do a professionnal music chart.  And there is some program out there that do the job close to perfectly.
 
What I need some time is to make a fast lead sheet because my friends are coming in for a jam session in two hours and I just need to do it fast and because I know that we will start on with the piece of paper but soon that gonna be take out LOL
 
So, what I will concretly like to see improve in the staff view will be something that don't influence the sound of the the tracks.  Signs like repeat, da, segno, coda that will come from (I don't know where)...
 
It's only and idea and it could be very usefull for me at least and probably for some other members here too...
Have a good week end and thank you!!

I'm with you Muzock, and thanks Jonesey for your reply! Much appreciated, I was a little confused...

Who looked into the future and saw nothing but loops ? Is that really a large percentage of sonars users ? I can not recall ever filling out a questionnaire asking if I use staff view loops etc 

I am not sure if I can do this with X1 but I used to write in the staff notation and then use the PRV to bring it to life (on the same screen/ not switching between screens) 

Well, I still maintain (and have sent in the feature request) that a more 'musical' staff view would be useful.  Something that takes all the notation, expressions, etc and can intelligently create editable MIDI CC's in that I could then further edit in the PRV.  And maybe I could even make stylistic selections (jazz, rock, baroque) that would set parameters for how Sonar 'interpreted' those symbols.
 
Yes, I know this currently exists in Finale with the Human Playback engine and I use it.  But as a compositional tool how nice it would be to have this capability right there in Sonar instead of having to create and export the tracks from Finale! 
 
For score preparation I would still use Finale, I don't expect Sonar to become a full on replacement for that.  But there are so many things I love about Sonar as a composition toolkit that I can't help but wish that Cake would just go ahead and make Sonar my one stop for composing!
 
So my suggestion is, just hire Robert Piechaud (designed the Finale Human Playback engine) and put all us notation geeks out of your misery! :-)  

how hard would it be to just enable sonar to work like this? right click inside a midi clip and open in your fave third party notation program, several free ones out there and then the file save as would work to enable you to save your work to your project file so it could be auto imported into a track lane to compare it with your existing midi file.

With 346 messages and 10439 views, I think it shows the member's interest about the staff view and maybe somebody at Cakewalk will take this seriously a little bit more important...
Heu...maybe, I came 20 times myself for that...

Even just supporting x64 rewire for midi tracks from a slave would make me get X2 upgrade.

For me notation is necessary for registering songs for publishing to be able to get royalty if any artist would record them and so on. That is my goal with my songwriting - no artist ambition whatsoever.

And when I've been renting vocalists it's was useful to get melody and lyrics out on PDF together with mp3 of backtrack to prepare before coming.

I like the basic implementation of Staff View in Sonar. I think it's rather clever.

So bakers, here is another vote.

Hello,

I was also here for several times to listen to all the other comments to this topic.
Of course I will also vote for better staff view and notation features in sonar. As many members wrote, notation is the language of music and such a powerful daw should have a corresponding level of notation features. For me it is the only thing I´m missing to put sonar on the same level as the other famous daw's.

Kind regards from germany,
Timo

I have no need to upgrade to X2 unless Staff View is improved.

I feel quite sad tbh ... I seems like I won't be upgrading to this new version of Sonar - even though some of the content and features are improved / look great.

A small move like Ben's sonar plus's note icons would have been an improvement...

Will keep an eye out for improvement's via patches.......  gutted..

I've given up on the idea that Cakewalk may improve notation. They've gone backwards with Sonar to the point where I can no longer edit my MIDI files in Score View. I really hate Piano Roll and Event Mgr....they're extremely clunky compared to Score View. That's the real drag for me. But for scores or lead sheets, it's much better to just export a MIDI or XML file to Finale and work with it there. However, I really don't understand why Sonar can't even come up to the level of Logic in notation.

Hit 'em again...harder, harder... http://www.cakewalk.com/s...ct/featurerequest.aspx

Eddy Yates


Hit 'em again...harder, harder... http://www.cakewalk.com/support/contact/featurerequest.aspx

Well that does us no good... You can't select Sonar X2 for a feature request. 
 
Really, our best hope is to get the Staff View working as well as it ever was - ala Sonar 7, according to those in the know, so really, a bug report would be more appropriate.
 
The feature request should really be to have Roland buy some company with better MIDI notation editing software and have it inserted into X2.
 
Hey - here is a company they could buy just for the notation editor:
 
http://www.anvilstudio.com/
 
 

Although I don't have Sonar X2 yet, I still have Sonar 8, the notation does frustrate me. I used to do all my notating in guitar pro until I discovered the notation function in Sonar. I thought it was perfect at first, until I discovered it doesn't allow for grace notes, dead notes, ringing, and other effects that guitar pro and no doubt other notation programs such as sibelius and finale allow. Has anyone gotten around this problem?

I started with X1, so I don't know if it's improved over Sonar 8 - but most that I've read, it's the same Staff view (added Music XML export during X1 expanded upgrade).

I just use the Staff view to check on the score (not using it to edit notes) as I record midi tracks - so, it's fine for what I do. When I'm done - I'll do the XML export to Notion 3 for touching up.