SBROP
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Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
Hi everyone. I'm a long time Cakewalk user and I also use Pro Tools periodically out of collaboration necessity. I currently use Sonar X2 as my main DAW for production work at our company. Recently, we obtained Pro Tools 11. As I go through the materials from AVID to get up to speed on things, it seems to me that there's a kind of "behind the curve" feeling I get when I compare Pro Tools to workflows and features that have been available in Sonar for some time now. So without babbling further, I just wanted to pose the following general question for discussion among peers. Other than the obvious "being consistent with industry standards" reason, what reasons do you have for using either DAW over the other? Best, Tobias www.sbrop.com
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Middleman
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 13:26:46
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Some other standard besides VST. I think the VST platform trashes decent audio and different companies implement the standard in different ways leaving us with varying results. For high quality audio, I don't feel a VST platform does the audio justice. This is why I use a DAW which does not rely on VST for audio. I do however use Sonar for VST sound generation i.e. the midi implementation sets the standard. I then move my files to another platform for mixing.
There, said that without mentioning any competitors.
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Chregg
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 13:30:02
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as far as i go its all about music creation, and i think apps like sonar, cubase, logic ar far better for music creation. The only way id bother spending the money on a HDX rig would be if i was opeing a studio for commercial use, and was "needing" that hardware/software solution, but i dont need it, and im more than happy with what i work with
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Chregg
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 13:32:03
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"I think the VST platform trashes decent audio" would you mind elaborating there please
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SBROP
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 13:43:37
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Chregg
as far as i go its all about music creation, and i think apps like sonar, cubase, logic ar far better for music creation. The only way id bother spending the money on a HDX rig would be if i was opeing a studio for commercial use, and was "needing" that hardware/software solution, but i dont need it, and im more than happy with what i work with
I find that this is pretty consistent with the way I've seen Pro Tools implemented. It's always A-Room stuff and kind of more "buzzy" for client side impression. There is an enormous amount of content created fully in Sonar alone that is used in film and television on a regular basis though not regularly advertised as such. This makes me wonder why Roland is not far more aggressive in touting this and shining light on these things from an industry position standpoint. But I'm actually very curious to see the technical reasons as they pertain to my original question. :-)
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Middleman
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 13:46:40
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I use the UAD platform and the difference in RTAS vs. VST of the same plug is clearer and small changes in the knob settings can be heard in RTAS less so in VST. I have file tested this and there is a difference in the files in the mid to upper frequency range.
From my experience it is a waste of time to compare DAW platforms without taking into consideration the primary influencer of the sound which is the plugins used to develop a mix. Another area which is never debated is how one DAW handles the audio driver versus another. This alone can skew your listening results even though the files of two systems can match.
Bowing out now because I have a feeling this old and worn out debate is about to tumble into the realm of my DAW is better than your DAW.
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SBROP
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 13:55:39
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Middleman
I use the UAD platform and the difference in RTAS vs. VST of the same plug is clearer and small changes in the knob settings can be heard in RTAS less so in VST. I have file tested this and there is a difference in the files in the mid to upper frequency range.
From my experience it is a waste of time to compare DAW platforms without taking into consideration the primary influencer of the sound which is the plugins used to develop a mix. Another area which is never debated is how one DAW handles the audio driver versus another. This alone can skew your listening results even though the files of two systems can match.
Bowing out now because I have a feeling this old and worn out debate is about to tumble into the realm of my DAW is better than your DAW.
Well......I'm looking for actual technical feedback which is what you're giving. I get what you're saying about the desire to bow out because most people do punt to vague general sentimental type points which is useless from a professional standpoint. I'd like to hear more about what you have to offer. At this point, it's not a factor in any decisions on our part at our company. We have BOTH systems. It's just a matter of workflow considerations to produce the work we do.
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Chregg
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 14:01:37
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"I use the UAD platform and the difference in RTAS vs. VST of the same plug is clearer and small changes in the knob settings can be heard in RTAS less so in VST. I have file tested this and there is a difference in the files in the mid to upper frequency range. " Thats quite interesting that, hate to drag you back into this, but what kinda differences where you seeing/hearing between the files
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aleef
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 16:48:00
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Recently, we obtained Pro Tools 11. No disrespect..but how??? It has not been released yet, and Avid and those in the know are bound to secrecy upon the launch date.
Intel i7 3820 3.6 GHz ASUS Sabertooth X79 16Gb SonarX2PE ProTools 11 RME HDSP9632
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Freddie H
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 17:20:15
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Chregg
"I use the UAD platform and the difference in RTAS vs. VST of the same plug is clearer and small changes in the knob settings can be heard in RTAS less so in VST. I have file tested this and there is a difference in the files in the mid to upper frequency range. " Thats quite interesting that, hate to drag you back into this, but what kinda differences where you seeing/hearing between the files
Middleman
I use the UAD platform and the difference in RTAS vs. VST of the same plug is clearer and small changes in the knob settings can be heard in RTAS less so in VST. I have file tested this and there is a difference in the files in the mid to upper frequency range.
From my experience it is a waste of time to compare DAW platforms without taking into consideration the primary influencer of the sound which is the plugins used to develop a mix. Another area which is never debated is how one DAW handles the audio driver versus another. This alone can skew your listening results even though the files of two systems can match.
Bowing out now because I have a feeling this old and worn out debate is about to tumble into the realm of my DAW is better than your DAW.
 What you experience is is because of phase shift and quality degradation of the RTAS plugins. RTAS do not sounds better actually it perform worse both in audio quality, CPU use, multi threading and latency. RTAS is in 24bit only. VST float in 32bit or 64bit. New AVX plugins float in x64bit and will sound and perform much better then RTAS. AU-plugins, OSX audio drivers and OSX over all perform less then PC and VST. MAC and OSX is not a very good multimedia platform that you might think. That is why the big turn in the multimedia industry last years (Music, FILM, animation, Photo) toward PC platform. As far as I know AVID has put their main resources making PRO TOOLS 11 x64 work and perform best on Windows 7/8 x64bit platform.
post edited by Freddie H - 2013/05/11 17:27:11
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Middleman
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 18:11:00
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Freddie H
Chregg
"I use the UAD platform and the difference in RTAS vs. VST of the same plug is clearer and small changes in the knob settings can be heard in RTAS less so in VST. I have file tested this and there is a difference in the files in the mid to upper frequency range. " Thats quite interesting that, hate to drag you back into this, but what kinda differences where you seeing/hearing between the files
Middleman
I use the UAD platform and the difference in RTAS vs. VST of the same plug is clearer and small changes in the knob settings can be heard in RTAS less so in VST. I have file tested this and there is a difference in the files in the mid to upper frequency range.
From my experience it is a waste of time to compare DAW platforms without taking into consideration the primary influencer of the sound which is the plugins used to develop a mix. Another area which is never debated is how one DAW handles the audio driver versus another. This alone can skew your listening results even though the files of two systems can match.
Bowing out now because I have a feeling this old and worn out debate is about to tumble into the realm of my DAW is better than your DAW.
What you experience is is because of phase shift and quality degradation of the RTAS plugins. RTAS do not sounds better actually it perform worse both in audio quality, CPU use, multi threading and latency. RTAS is in 24bit only. VST float in 32bit or 64bit.
New AVX plugins float in x64bit and will sound and perform much better then RTAS.
AU-plugins, OSX audio drivers and OSX over all perform less then PC and VST. MAC and OSX is not a very good multimedia platform that you might think.
That is why the big turn in the multimedia industry last years (Music, FILM, animation, Photo) toward PC platform. As far as I know AVID has put their main resources making PRO TOOLS 11 x64 work and perform best on Windows 7/8 x64bit platform.
This is not in line with the testing I have done. Additionally, I am using the 32 bit float option in 10.3.5. Your information is outdated as Protools updated the rtas platform to run 32 bit. Also, I am not using a Mac with Protools here, using Windows 7x64. But here we go, he said, she said.
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sergiobklyn
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/11 19:24:44
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One thing that I think is much better in Pro Tools, is notation. It's a light version of Sibelius that's significantly better than what Sonar has.
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SBROP
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/12 09:26:31
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aleef
Recently, we obtained Pro Tools 11.
No disrespect..but how??? It has not been released yet, and Avid and those in the know are bound to secrecy upon the launch date.
None taken at all. Right place, right time kind of thing. ;-)
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BlixYZ
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/12 16:06:04
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"VST trashes good audio"- preposterous.
that argument's been settled years ago.
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gcolbert
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/12 19:42:50
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VST trashes good audio Of course VST trashes good audio. You feed it a number 3 and you might get back a number 5. Of course, if the AU or RTAS plugin is really using the same algorythum, if the VST returns a 5 then the AU and the RTAS will also return a 5. Look folks, this is just about mathematics at the plugin level. You feed in a number and you get another number out. It does not have anything to do with sound. Same algorythum, same result. In the end, all of the plugins trash what they receive. That's what we want them to do. Same truth pretty much applies to the DAWS (once you get past the A/D or D/A converters which don't have anything to do with which DAW). Glen
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Middleman
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/12 20:28:27
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gcolbert
Look folks, this is just about mathematics at the plugin level. You feed in a number and you get another number out. It does not have anything to do with sound. Same algorythum, same result. In the end, all of the plugins trash what they receive. That's what we want them to do. Same truth pretty much applies to the DAWS (once you get past the A/D or D/A converters which don't have anything to do with which DAW).
Glen
It's also about, how well did the DAW company implement VST because it's a Steinberg platform which other companies implement. There are variations there as well.
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Jürgen Gleisberg
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 05:51:43
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sergiobklyn
One thing that I think is much better in Pro Tools, is notation. It's a light version of Sibelius that's significantly better than what Sonar has.
Hi, yes, notation is much better in many other daw's I know, for example Cubase and Samplitude as well. It's the really only part in sonar I dislike. And because of this, you cannot master every element of the music production process, as it is described on the hompage. Timo
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John
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 06:54:52
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Middleman
I use the UAD platform and the difference in RTAS vs. VST of the same plug is clearer and small changes in the knob settings can be heard in RTAS less so in VST. I have file tested this and there is a difference in the files in the mid to upper frequency range.
From my experience it is a waste of time to compare DAW platforms without taking into consideration the primary influencer of the sound which is the plugins used to develop a mix. Another area which is never debated is how one DAW handles the audio driver versus another. This alone can skew your listening results even though the files of two systems can match.
Bowing out now because I have a feeling this old and worn out debate is about to tumble into the realm of my DAW is better than your DAW.
I have heard a lot of odd things over the years but this is the most off the wall thinking I have seen in a long time. VST and RTAS are protocols only. Neither one has anything to do with the sound what so ever. The same goes for DX. If you perceive a difference it has nothing to do with the protocol used. As long as the internal processing is run using the same math and the bit depth and sample rate are the same there should be no difference. Think of the protocol as nothing more then a container holding the processing algorithms. What is important to us end users is will it work with our host? I am not a fan of any protocol. It makes no difference to me whether its VST or DX as long as my host can load it. You should look at it that same way. Though, my first guess would be that an RTAS plugin would be more limited in how it can process due to the limitation of PTs audio engine for so many years. It has used a 48 bit integer audio engine for a very long time. I'm not sure that an RTAS plugin is designed to do floating point math. If it does than it should sound the same as a VST version or DX. If not it is due to the RTAS protocol that is use only by PT. Why do you think PT has move away from it and now is using a brand new protocol? Could it be because RTAS can not deal well with floating point audio?
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Middleman
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 11:03:51
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John, you're operating from a lot of old data.
The way the math is implemented, and it is not the same, has everything to do with how the final result will sound.
RTAS uses 32 bit float as of several versions ago, already stated earlier in the thread.
RTAS is a x32 bit platform and the direction for PT now is x64 bit, that is why things are moving to AAX. Purely an update to the platform.
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Chregg
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 13:49:46
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the thing is middleman, i asked you to elaborate on that and you still really havent, once again, what differences in the mid and upper frequencies, between the two files you mentioned, justify this claim ?? Please
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Middleman
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 14:20:37
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Cheregg, if you are familiar with null testing then you know that when two files are compared, you will hear nothing when they are matched. In a couple of tests I null tested the UA plugins in RTAS and then again in VST using the same original file imported into two different DAWs. I used one of the preset settings for the 1176 compressor (think it was the gentle vocal) and the LA2A (medium compression preset). There was upper mid range sound from the null tests in the 800 up to 5k. Just transient differential information.
Now some could say, even though the results are not the same, making a statement like "better" or "clearer" is an opinion, and it is, but the original OP asked for people's reasons for using one over the other. Those are my reasons.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 14:33:48
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Unless you're an Avid beta-tester, you have no means to compare Sonar X2 vs. ProTools 11. 
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John
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 14:38:07
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Middleman
Cheregg, if you are familiar with null testing then you know that when two files are compared, you will hear nothing when they are matched. In a couple of tests I null tested the UA plugins in RTAS and then again in VST using the same original file imported into two different DAWs. I used one of the preset settings for the 1176 compressor (think it was the gentle vocal) and the LA2A (medium compression preset). There was upper mid range sound from the null tests in the 800 up to 5k. Just transient differential information.
Now some could say, even though the results are not the same, making a statement like "better" or "clearer" is an opinion, and it is, but the original OP asked for people's reasons for using one over the other. Those are my reasons.
And you know which one is "wrong"? Could it be that the VST version is the "truer" version? Perhaps both are "wrong"?
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Middleman
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 15:08:34
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John
And you know which one is "wrong"? Could it be that the VST version is the "truer" version? Perhaps both are "wrong"?
Both being wrong is a possibility. Truth is in the mind (and ears ) of the beholder. VST sounded flatter and duller to some extent than the RTAS results. I like the latter sound better, that is my reason for choosing one over the other for audio. I think I've answered all the questions asked about my "reasons". Let others provide theirs who use both DAWs.
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konradh
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 16:18:19
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Reasons for Sonar: • Used it for a long time (since Windows 3.1) and didn't want to relearn • I use a lot of soft synths and memory matters. Sonar was running 64-bit a year and a half ago when I went to X1 • Sonar comes bundled with more stuff • I like the V-Studio integration and since I used VS-1680 and many Roland products, I felt comfortable with it • Sonar has better support. • Pro Tools is the industry standard if you mean large facilities with existing equipment that replaced the multitrack tape machine with a computer a few years ago. It may or may not be the standard for most producers. Not sure. • Pro Tools has changed but originally required a complex and expensive hardware+software solution. Sonar (like Cubase and others) could be easily installed on virtually any reasonably-powered PC. • PCs are way cheaper than Macs for what you get. I understand the advantages of Macs—there are two in my house—but PC wins the bang-for-buck war. All that said, I am not married to Sonar but see no real reason to change. I can easily make stems (wavs) to take to another studio when needed.
post edited by konradh - 2013/05/15 13:25:43
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 16:38:50
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You have to be careful using null tests to compare things. Some tests are OK and you are going to get a good null. For example comparing exactly the same mix faders wise and using LCR panning only on two DAW's. I have done this and the results are as you would expect. Literally a perfect null.
But null testing EQ and also dynamics processes is a little different. Especially dynamics processes. The same plug in two different formats inside two DAW's may produce very slight variances in behaviour thus not giving a perfect null at certain frequencies. But yet the 'sound' of them may still be identical when used singly or on their own. The same applies to EQ.
I have not had huge amounts of experiences with this but I have used the same synth for example in two different plugin formats and inside two different DAW's. I certainly did not hear any sonic differences between the two and I am usually sensitive to minor differences in synths especially. Of course I was not doing an A/B test either and had to rely on memory. I have printed or bounced parts though and when you do compare them they are hard to pick.
There is nothing wrong with the VST audio standard or quality. It is nit picking a very fine or literally undetectable difference detail in production which under a very controlled A/B test would make it very hard for anyone to hear. And it has not been mentioned elsewhere has it. Has any respectable magazine such as Sound on Sound made a big deal of sonic differences between plugin formats. NO, not really, As I have said many times it is your production skills, ear and adjusting skills that far outweigh any talk of differences in plugin formats. Average engineer = average mix, great engineer = excellent mix. So where do your plugin sonic differences come into play here.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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John
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 17:40:34
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Jeff Evans
You have to be careful using null tests to compare things. Some tests are OK and you are going to get a good null. For example comparing exactly the same mix faders wise and using LCR panning only on two DAW's. I have done this and the results are as you would expect. Literally a perfect null.
But null testing EQ and also dynamics processes is a little different. Especially dynamics processes. The same plug in two different formats inside two DAW's may produce very slight variances in behaviour thus not giving a perfect null at certain frequencies. But yet the 'sound' of them may still be identical when used singly or on their own. The same applies to EQ.
I have not had huge amounts of experiences with this but I have used the same synth for example in two different plugin formats and inside two different DAW's. I certainly did not hear any sonic differences between the two and I am usually sensitive to minor differences in synths especially. Of course I was not doing an A/B test either and had to rely on memory. I have printed or bounced parts though and when you do compare them they are hard to pick.
There is nothing wrong with the VST audio standard or quality. It is nit picking a very fine or literally undetectable difference detail in production which under a very controlled A/B test would make it very hard for anyone to hear. And it has not been mentioned elsewhere has it. Has any respectable magazine such as Sound on Sound made a big deal of sonic differences between plugin formats. NO, not really, As I have said many times it is your production skills, ear and adjusting skills that far outweigh any talk of differences in plugin formats. Average engineer = average mix, great engineer = excellent mix. So where do your plugin sonic differences come into play here.
This is an outstanding post. It is also an important one. One thing that I must add is that Middleman is a very fine and knowledgeable forum member that I listen to. In this case he has his own views that are contrary to my own. This in no way impacts my complete respect for him.
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Middleman
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 20:53:58
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Jeff Evans
But null testing EQ and also dynamics processes is a little different. Especially dynamics processes. The same plug in two different formats inside two DAW's may produce very slight variances in behaviour thus not giving a perfect null at certain frequencies. But yet the 'sound' of them may still be identical when used singly or on their own. The same applies to EQ.
If there are only minor differences yes. But differences in the 1-3db range would be audible. Just saying, you have to make a determination as to what is significant and what is not. There is nothing wrong with the VST audio standard or quality.
I agree, the original question speaks to user experience, opinion and differences.
It is nit picking a very fine or literally undetectable difference detail in production which under a very controlled A/B test would make it very hard for anyone to hear. And it has not been mentioned elsewhere has it. Has any respectable magazine such as Sound on Sound made a big deal of sonic differences between plugin formats.
I agree if the sonic differences are minor but my ear hears a considerable difference and sonic perceptions speak to human response and creativity. One person cannot negate what inspires creativity. If you find that working in a VST environment is more inspirational then no one can really comment but when someone asks for why a person would use one environment over another and there are measurable differences and experiences, I think it fair to relay those experiences. So where do your plugin sonic differences come into play here.
They come into play when I can get better results and be inspired in one environment versus the other because I am getting auditory feedback that inspires me. Just for the record here I maintain that the RTAS experience for me, in audio, is better. I also mentioned earlier that Sonar X1 is the environment in which I create midi because the VST sound is not unusable and the midi experience for creating tracks is better. Regardless, in all cases the easiest and more inspirational experience for creating music is the choice. John, thanks for the comment. I am not looking for converts here, just relaying the experience based on the original inquiry. Mutual respect as well. But we are both from a time on this board when ideas were debated, questioned but not squashed. I miss those days. Jeff, I have to address the SOS comment. Why has not one magazine or article in all the years of digital compared plug in platforms? No information for or against the premise. There a numerous DAW shootouts but no one has dug into the impact of plugins. I would like to see a Steinberg vs Protools platform comparison on this. Would be interesting for the masses.
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gcolbert
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 21:10:11
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The way the math is implemented, and it is not the same It seems that 2 + 2 = 4. Do they have some new math that produces a smoother or better sounding 4? There may be some rounding differences between integer math and floating point math, but this would be limited to the least significant digit (way below any noticable noise floor). VST and RTAS are even less than protocols, they are just API definitions to execute the same code (the same math). And on the topic. 2 + 2 still equals 4 if you are running on an x32 system or an x64 system. There is a performance difference, but no difference in the math.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar X2 Producer vs. Pro Tools 11
2013/05/13 22:27:48
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gcolbert
VST and RTAS are even less than protocols, they are just API definitions to execute the same code (the same math).
This is the bottom line and all we really need to know. Any perceived differences are not due to the plug-in platform.
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