Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help

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EricDeluxe
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2012/09/24 02:47:00 (permalink)

Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help

Hello

I am going to make a template for Sonar X2, where I am using the NI Maschine as a major drum production unit. Thus I want to sequence Maschine from X2 and use one sound (pad) per channel (16 different) for lets say Kick, Snare, Toms etc. I did find a tutorial for this, but thats for Ableton Live, so didn't figure it out really. Hopefully someone can help me out how to set this up.

Question 1
I guess I change each drum sound to a different midi channels. How do I route Maschines outputs? From Sound, Part or Group? 
How should I set up the Sound Midi Batch Mode (from Maschine Software - Pattern selection area below)

Question 2
What options do I use when inserting Maschine as a synth in Sonar X2?
- Singel instrument track, and then insert midi tracks or other options?

Thanks!


http://soundcloud.com/ericdeluxe - my harder side
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    perfectprint
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 03:03:21 (permalink)
    here is mine: http://thehydrilla.com/mu...schine%2016%20Outs.cwx ..... place it in you track template folder (press p and go to File > Folder locations to find out where exactly). It is set up so all the pads in Group A have their own audio track. i found sequencing in machine and then dragging the midi to the 1 midi track in the template was the easiest way to go about things although you could record straight to the midi track. when drag dropping MIDI from maschine choose the 3rd option.

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    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 03:13:13 (permalink)

    Hey


    Thanks! Great, will check this out:)
    perfectprint


    here is mine: http://thehydrilla.com/mu...schine%2016%20Outs.cwx ..... place it in you track template folder (press p and go to File > Folder locations to find out where exactly). It is set up so all the pads in Group A have their own audio track. i found sequencing in machine and then dragging the midi to the 1 midi track in the template was the easiest way to go about things although you could record straight to the midi track. when drag dropping MIDI from maschine choose the 3rd option.



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    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 03:54:14 (permalink)
    Hello perfectprint

    Thanks for you template.
    I tried it out, and it works fine and looks tidy:)

    However, I still want to make the kick, snare etc on individual channels and record them into Sonar.

    How do I do this?

    Thanks again!

    http://soundcloud.com/ericdeluxe - my harder side
    https://soundcloud.com/cirque-du-sonique my softer side
    ***************************************
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    Dman11
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 03:55:31 (permalink)
    I recently picked up a Maschine Mikro and I'm not 100% on how to program it yet. This is what I've come up with so far. Use ACT to control the Transport controls (play,rec,restart, undo...) in Sonar and use Low Notes (C1, D1...) in the Maschine Control software. Use Right Click Remote Control in Sonar to assign the Faders and knobs, in Maschine Conrol use Control Change (not sure bout this, I'm not using faders on the Mikro). Then use Notes on the Pads in Maschine Control to line up with what you want in Sonar. Maschine Control and Sonars notes might be 2 Octaves off. Here's my current  16 pad line-up for EZ Drummer Claustrophobic. Those are Maschine Control notes.
     
    Ride (D#2) - Closed Hat (A#-1) - Open Hat (D0) - Shaker (D#8)
    Snare1 (F#3) - Snare2 - (D1) - L Crash (C#2) - R Crash (A2)
    Tom1 (C2) - Tom2 (A1) - Tom3 (G1) - Tom4 (F1)
    Kick1 (B0) - Kick2 (C1) - Splash (G2) - Bell (F2)
     
    I love my Maschine Mikro. The pads are very responsive and I like how it lights up. It's so easy to make a layered drum track once the Transpor Controls are set up.
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    perfectprint
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 04:26:52 (permalink)
    no problem. okay, so you mean you want to have 16 midi tracks to correspond to the 16 audio tracks? try this...... clone the midi track 15 times. set them to receive all inputs MIDI omni. next change the midi channel on each track to 1 through 16 (this will send midi messages to each of the 16 pads in maschine). relabel all the midi tracks also to keep track. change maschines Sound MIDI Batch Setup to the second option. Now you should be able to have full keyboard control over each pad on each midi track. It will allow you to do pitched tom rolls play any instrument that you load onto a pad.

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    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 05:50:32 (permalink)
    Hello

    Yes perfectprint, I want to have 16 midi trax to correspondent to the 16 audio tracks

    I tried your solution, (using your template) and the inserting a midi track, changed the settings for this track to try it out. When arp Record button, nothing is recorded. (Wish I could include a screen dump).

    Or should I only go for the first track (Out 1) and duplicate this one?

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    Blogman
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 07:34:31 (permalink)
    You guys are doin' it all wrong (not that there's a wrong way to be creative). The idea with Maschine is to Lay your tracks individually INSIDE Maschine (inside Sonar), Otherwise you're kinda missing the whole Loop concept. Best parts of this is automating FX and saving your automation tweaks per pattern etc. You just load the samples and play your keyboard, make the patterns INSIDE Maschine. No need for indvidually routing everything, the midi keyboard should play whatever channel or sound is in focus. Once every things laid, then bounce the Maschince down to separate groups or individual sounds via File, bounce, select the tracks (this is inside Maschine). Import them back to Sonar and you're ready to go. This is one of the things I love about maschine is not touching the mouse in sonar. Browsing and loading while the track is playing, trying sounds, loading other sounds, loading fx, automating fx. You can play all individual patches and sounds from the same keyboard or from Maschine itself.
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    BarryL
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 08:33:02 (permalink)
    I'd have to agree with blogman. If you do go with the routing method, one of the things you'll find annoying about Maschine inside Sonar is that you can assign a pad to an audio output, but as soon as you change the sound on that pad, it will automatically reassign itself to group/master! obviously highly annoying as you have to go into the pad audio routing again and change it.

    I did post on NI forums about this and this is just the way its designed. As above, i tend to now make most of the parts in Maschine standalone, then import the parts into Sonar for mixing. 
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    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 19:09:40 (permalink)
    Hello

    Great with some more feedback:)

    Yeah, I must say that it is nice to program loops and changing sounds in the Maschine. I haven't had my Maschine that long, so I am trying to find my "creative path" when using it.

    One thing I find rather important is to be able to mix the drums on separate track in Sonar. As I understand it Blogman and BarryL bounce the patterns in Maschine first, the importing the audiofile in Sonar and mix them there. I will try this out now:) 

     

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    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 19:23:33 (permalink)
    Blogman...

    What options do you use when inserting the Maschine in Sonar?

    - Simple instrument track and then creating miditracks?
    - First Synth Audio Output
    - All Synth Audio Output(Stereo or Mono)

    Do you enable Midi Source and Midi Output checkboxes?

    Thanks

    http://soundcloud.com/ericdeluxe - my harder side
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    bigboi
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 19:27:31 (permalink)
    i have the weirdest bug wih Maschine. it always lags exactly one measure behind the metronome i  Sonar. anyone else wih this problem?

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    perfectprint
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 19:34:37 (permalink)
    blogman - thats exactly how my template is set up and how I use it. Its basically like an MPC/ASR sequencer/sampler with 16 stereo outs, all sequencing done inside Maschine with the added ability to utilize the prochannel and fx bin for each out/pad/track. you do realize also that Maschine supports drag and drop audio so you can just drag the audio straight into sonar; no need to export anything and create redundant files.

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    perfectprint
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 19:37:47 (permalink)
    Barryl - You are wrong about that. The routing is only reassigned if you RESET the pad or group. Simply loading a new sample to the pad does nothing to effect the routing at all.

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    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 20:03:32 (permalink)
    The drag and drop audio was a great feature:) Why bother with Midi messages. I will make my drums/sounds in Maschine and just drag them into Sonar. 

    Perfectprint - Do you set it up like in your template, and then use drag and drop audio?
    Thanks for all your help guys! 


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    perfectprint
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 20:15:14 (permalink)
    I usually use bounce to tracks, sometimes freeze. Ill drag and drop occasionally if I want something on a new track. There are so many ways of working you will eventually figure out which is best for a certain situation. I worked with hardware samplers for a long time so I set up mine to mirror that, taking advantage of software flexibility. I will say I find the scene arranger in Maschine a bit cumbersome, which is why I often drag and drop the different MIDI patterns into the MIDI track in Sonar where its easier to arrange them alongside the rest of the project.

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    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 20:30:20 (permalink)
    Ok

    Great input from you all. I will get there eventually:) Anyway, I love Maschine, especially now after 1.8 with all the extra colors in the software. 
    Don't feel like I need the new hardware. 

    Take care!

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    mudgel
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 20:58:53 (permalink)
    You know Maschine 1.8 has been released today.

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/24 21:27:12 (permalink)

    Yepp:) Downloaded and installed. Looks great!
    mudgel


    You know Maschine 1.8 has been released today.



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    Mystic38
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 03:20:11 (permalink)
    Well, since we are on the subject.. :)

    Since we have already covered using the multiple audio outs and discussed that there is not much doubt that it is far easier to make the drum track directly on Maschine.. however notice that you can automate scene changes via program change controls from Sonar... use the pull down box in Maschine in the scene area next to project name to enable remote midi scene control and select PC messageds

    So, simply setup a one bar blank pattern> scene 1 and insert PC=0 at 1:01:000... this will cover the Sonar count in.
    then make patterns at will, and pop them into scenes and insert program change notes ( i use the even list) on Maschines midi track.. (with PC # one less than scene number) then you can play your track end>end.. if you wish to play freestyle, simply mute the midi track.

    @bigboi.. that one bar is Sonar's lead in.. either remove the lead in in Sonar or automate Maschine to remove it..

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    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 07:32:08 (permalink)

    Hello again


    I found the way of draging audio and midi into Sonar works very well for me. However I also like to use your template.
    I have changed the outputs of Maschine, and running a drum track. I got a signal on each audiotrack (Out 1, 2 etc), one for kick, snare etc.


    However, when arp for record and then hitting record, nothing is recorded? The Maschine is playing and there are signal to the trax. What do I do wrong?


    Any other settings?


    Thanks
    perfectprint


    here is mine: http://thehydrilla.com/mu...schine%2016%20Outs.cwx ..... place it in you track template folder (press p and go to File > Folder locations to find out where exactly). It is set up so all the pads in Group A have their own audio track. i found sequencing in machine and then dragging the midi to the 1 midi track in the template was the easiest way to go about things although you could record straight to the midi track. when drag dropping MIDI from maschine choose the 3rd option.



    http://soundcloud.com/ericdeluxe - my harder side
    https://soundcloud.com/cirque-du-sonique my softer side
    ***************************************
    Sonar Platinum, Windows 10 (64 bit), MOTU Ultralite MK3 Hybrid, Novation SL MKII 25, NI KORE 2, NI Maschine, NI Komplete 9, Yamaha HS50m, AKG K240S, AKG Perception 200, Z3TA 2+, Soundtoys Native Effects, PSP Mixpack 2, several VSTs
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    Blogman
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 10:07:47 (permalink)
    I insert softsynth: MIDI source, Synth Track folder, First Synth Audio Output. click on the midi track, Then ANY pad you hit will be 'In focus' on your keyboard. Pitched snares if you're on the snare track, pitched bass booms. So much easier while tracking to simply hit the maschine pad of the sound you want to play and play it on Maschine or any of your keyboards. The thing I love this way is getting away from the mouse. Automate a snare to have more flange on its snare roll. Select that loop for the next breakdown and the automation is already there. No need to set up a gazillion tracks while tracking... that's done for you inside Maschine. I like to do File, Export Audio, then select either the 'master, groups, or sounds'. Usually I do Sounds keeping in mind if I had BUS compression goin inside Maschine. There you have options of Normalize, loop optomize, bit depth. I set the folder location to the project folder I'm working on and export there. Import the audio back into Sonar (not copying to project folder, so there is only 1 bounce of each track). Then you can treat the audio separately in Sonar. Save a step of all of those source tracks and clicking around in sonar to trigger each one. Hit the pad and go. Side note: if you're happy with your EQ and settings in Maschine and don't need any further mixing treatment you can just bounce your entire Sonar mix and Maschine will bounce with. Love the new colors!!!
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    Mystic38
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 10:23:37 (permalink)
    Blogman


    I insert softsynth: MIDI source, Synth Track folder, First Synth Audio Output. click on the midi track, Then ANY pad you hit will be 'In focus' on your keyboard. Pitched snares if you're on the snare track, pitched bass booms. So much easier while tracking to simply hit the maschine pad of the sound you want to play and play it on Maschine or any of your keyboards. The thing I love this way is getting away from the mouse. Automate a snare to have more flange on its snare roll. Select that loop for the next breakdown and the automation is already there. No need to set up a gazillion tracks while tracking... that's done for you inside Maschine. I like to do File, Export Audio, then select either the 'master, groups, or sounds'. Usually I do Sounds keeping in mind if I had BUS compression goin inside Maschine. There you have options of Normalize, loop optomize, bit depth. I set the folder location to the project folder I'm working on and export there. Import the audio back into Sonar (not copying to project folder, so there is only 1 bounce of each track). Then you can treat the audio separately in Sonar. Save a step of all of those source tracks and clicking around in sonar to trigger each one. Hit the pad and go. Side note: if you're happy with your EQ and settings in Maschine and don't need any further mixing treatment you can just bounce your entire Sonar mix and Maschine will bounce with. Love the new colors!!!

    I guess it just shows how many different ways to work...:)
     
    I instantiate with midi source, but all audio outputs.. then usually collapse them to about 4.. kick, snare, hihats and other.
    Like you i use Maschine to build the patterns, but since i am forever tweaking, i use the midi source track to change scenes corresponding to the track parts.. ie automating pattern changes and so in this way i can sit back and Sonar will play the entire track doing the pattern changes for me.
    At the end rather than going through export i simply freeze the synth, and all audio tracks simply fall into place in Sonar..

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    Mystic38
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 10:45:28 (permalink)
    OFF TOPIC...


    Anyone got Sonar Host control working from Maschine?.. i get stuck at control surface "connecting..."

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    perfectprint
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 16:56:19 (permalink)
    mystic, yes I just got done doing it. ill trade the info if you help me bug check real quick: load a sample or two onto a couple of pads( with maschine as a plugin in sonar), preferably from outside of Maschines library by hitting the Disk button atop of Maschine browser. Save and close the project. Move the two samples you loaded to another destination so Maschine cant find them when you reopen the session. Navigate to the new destination following Maschines missing samples prompt and select the first sample as Maschine asks you to. Does the sample load and does the following one load also? I am getting this result: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Ucr6HJ9yA There seems to be no problem for me in Standalone, just as a vsti.

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    #25
    perfectprint
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 17:10:54 (permalink)
    To use Maschines Transport section to control Sonar: Preferences > MIDI > Control surfaces. Add a new surface selecting ACT, Input: Maschine, Output: None. Deselect WAI........................ next go Utilities > ACT MIDI 1, or select the Controller Surface Properties from the ACT module on the controller pane. With buttons 1-4 being Play-Shift and 5-8 being Restart-Grid I set mine up like this: http://snag.gy/1sIvI.jpg from using the default preset. Use the options tab to assign functions to buttons and then click the empty row under the function to MIDI learn by pressing the button on Maschine. Works fine, but whether it becomes part of my work flow remains to be seen.

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    #26
    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 18:02:23 (permalink)
    Mystic38, blogman, perfectprint...
    Unfortunately I lack som knowledge in the midi area, and I sometimes struggling with more complicated set-ups. However, the set-up above seem pretty straight forward. 

    I followed your instructions above, but I still can't record audio. I try a last time.

    1. I insert the Maschine w Midi source, Synth track folder, First Synth Audio Output
    2. I open up a drum kit with my pattern.
    2. I set the Midi track to: Input: Automap midi omni, Out: Maschine, Midi Channel None
    3. I create 5 audiotracks, Input: Maschine Out 1 R Stereo (2 R Stereo, 3 R Stereoc etc per new track), Output: Master (or drumbus)
    4. I change the output for each midichannel in the pattern area; kickdrum on 1 to Out 1 etc.

    The meter indicates that I got signal, and I hear all drums on separate tracks. I arm for recording on the maschine track and then hit record. Nothing is recorded??? I don't get it?

    I have seen a tutorial for this but for Ableton Live, and with your help this should work. I don't know how to proceed now....


    PS - when hitting record I get about one bar before I can hear the sound again.

    http://soundcloud.com/ericdeluxe - my harder side
    https://soundcloud.com/cirque-du-sonique my softer side
    ***************************************
    Sonar Platinum, Windows 10 (64 bit), MOTU Ultralite MK3 Hybrid, Novation SL MKII 25, NI KORE 2, NI Maschine, NI Komplete 9, Yamaha HS50m, AKG K240S, AKG Perception 200, Z3TA 2+, Soundtoys Native Effects, PSP Mixpack 2, several VSTs
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    #27
    Blogman
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 18:23:46 (permalink)
    First off, in your preferences, Project, Metronome, in sonar, turn off the count in (Record Count in = 0). Secondly, you might find it necessary to hit the PDC button, and/FX button for best results latency wise. (I've yet to upgrade to X2 so this may/may not be differnt). Third, for me, I don't separate maschines audio until I'm done with tracking and export it from Maschine (running in Sonar still) and import it. With other programs such as Kontakt 5 Studio Drummer/Abbey roads, I'll set up multiple outs and multiple synth audio tracks and bounce via Sonar's side (separated Kick, snare, hh, toms, oh, rooms, etc... With Maschine, I load the one synth insert with midi track and synth track in a folder, Do all the switching and programming with Pads/keyboads, then in Maschine (File, Export, Master/Group/sounds) Many ways to skin a kitty. Maschine reminds me of 7th grade with my Roland S-50 Sampling/sequencing/editing with the drawing tablet. New Old School! You have clicked/padded a pattern and adjusted to the desired length prior to recording haven't you? I like to pre setup 4 bar Blank patterns, then just lay the whole thing down scratch (like in sonar) then Maschine separates it to the pre set 4 bars. best of both worlds! No wrong way, so long as we can help you find 1 or more ways for it to work for you.
    #28
    EricDeluxe
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 18:36:32 (permalink)
    Blogman

    Thanks, that did the trick with the metronone. Didn't need to hit PDC/FX:)

    I think I will go for the file export or drag midi/audio solution. Just seem a bit to much to set up every time.
    I normally use 4 bar and go from there.

    Thanks again.

    http://soundcloud.com/ericdeluxe - my harder side
    https://soundcloud.com/cirque-du-sonique my softer side
    ***************************************
    Sonar Platinum, Windows 10 (64 bit), MOTU Ultralite MK3 Hybrid, Novation SL MKII 25, NI KORE 2, NI Maschine, NI Komplete 9, Yamaha HS50m, AKG K240S, AKG Perception 200, Z3TA 2+, Soundtoys Native Effects, PSP Mixpack 2, several VSTs
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    #29
    perfectprint
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    Re:Sonar X2 and NI Maschine Template - need help 2012/09/25 20:38:00 (permalink)
    Update to inability to locate missing samples problem if anyone else is experiencing it: go to firewall settings in the control panel and allow Cakewalk Audio Finder though the firewall. A Studio One user encountered the same problem but was prompted by S1 as to the issue.

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    #30
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