Sonar X2a for songwriters

Unlimited tracks, good tools for editing, plenty of virtual synths, and a quick workflow help.

From the manual :

"Publishing usually means printing your music; it’s one way to share your finished product with other performers. After you’ve recorded and arranged a song in SONAR, you can produce printed lead sheets and small scores with lyrics for sharing. You can also share the music files themselves. SONAR will save your music in a format that you can put on a web site or email to other people."

And :

"Adding and editing lyrics in the Lyrics view

Lyrics appear in the Lyrics view as a stream of syllables, each one associated with a note in the track. In this context, a syllable is any continuous string of characters, without a hyphen. For example, “love,” “desire,” and “infatuation” are all syllables; each one would be associated with a single note. If you want to break a word into multiple syllables, you must hyphenate the word. For example, “de-sire” would map onto two notes, since it is now two syllables long.

When you enter the lyrics, you can mark the syllables the way you want, or you can simply type the text in normally and use automatic hyphenation to break the text into syllables. This means that you can add lyrics to a project by copying and pasting them from another application (such as a word processor), and then hyphenate them automatically.

To extend a single syllable over more than one note, you can use extra hyphens, separated by spaces. For example, in “Oh-say can you see…”, the “Oh” is extended over two notes. If a track contains no lyrics yet, the display will show only a series of hyphens (one for each note in the track).

If you enter more syllables than there are notes in the track, SONAR assigns the extra lyrics times at quarter note intervals."

Regular and inline PRVs, Clip Header, bright and easy-to-identify note colors and 'Show Clip Outline.'

IMO there are a couple of DAW software which are clearly loop/sample based electronica/hiphop/dance and live/instant orientated, but all the other big ones, SONAR, Cubase, Pro Tools, Studio One etc are genre neutral.

Or... what is a "songwriter" in your vocabulary? Do you mean like a man and a guitar, maybe bass, drums and piano? Except for the ones who only do orchestral, film scores and instrumental, commercials etc. I think all of us are making "songs" in our own opinion.

Anyway, I can't name any single feature in SONAR, or in any other DAW, that would somehow be "a strength in songwriting", because all features in a music making software are aimed at making music.

chuckebaby


loops, loops are a songwriters best friend, 

Real songwriters don't depend on loops.  

Feel better now?

vintagevibe

chuckebaby


loops, loops are a songwriters best friend, 

Real songwriters don't depend on loops.  

Making good use of loops doesn't mean that you "depend" on them. "Real songwriters" use loops all the time, whether it's moving clips around in a DAW or deciding to strum the same pattern for 8 bars. 


In terms of songwriting, the ability to loop clips over a section is invaluable. It really helps to be able to sketch out a song structure with loops, so that you quickly have a sense of the overall feel of the track and where it's going. 


My creative process often goes something like this: I'll sit and play around with a loop, say 4 bars or so, and really put my creative all into getting a good musical idea going in that loop. Then, I'll stretch it out into a song section, then make the next loop, and stretch that out into another section - and so on, until I have a basic tune structure. Then, you can work your way through the song from the beginning, adding subtle and not-so-subtle variation into each loop as you go along. Or you can chip away parts of it from the beginning so that new elements are gradually introduced as the song progresses. I do this for all tracks. Then, you make another pass through the whole thing, and work on the interplay between parts. So whereas you initially had a drum loop playing the same thing over and over, now you go in and work on how the drums interact with the variations in the bass line you just made, or play with the interaction between synth parts or whatever. 

You can make as many passes as you feel the need for, and with each pass you're refining the composition and noticing new possibilities in the way the tracks relate and respond to each other. Before you know it, you have something which is anything but a bunch of repeated loops, even though it started that way. This is no different to the sculptor who starts off with a bland cube of marble, chips away a basic shape and then keeps passing over the whole thing and chipping away with smaller and smaller tools until he has an intricate piece of artwork. 

The amount of repetition that you can get away with varies from genre to genre. With EDM, for instance, it's perfectly acceptable (and preferred sometimes) to have a lot of outright repetition and heavy quantization. Whereas with a jazz piece, listeners are going to expect a lot more variation. 

vintagevibe

chuckebaby


loops, loops are a songwriters best friend, 

Real songwriters don't depend on loops.  

not for a final product, just for getting foundation of a song down.
I don't use use loops in my music, but I do create foundations of songs around hooks,
what is a hook, its a loop basically isn't it ?
 
I do though on the other hand think there are many great musicians out there that do use loops.
so for you to say, "real musicians don't use loops, that is thin and weak, shallow even.
 
an artist is an artist , loops may help them get to where they want to go.
like I said, I don't use loops but that is non sense to say real musicians don't use loops.
I used to think like that, that's narrow minded.
 
hope i cleared this up for you 
 
good luck with that  :)

vintagevibe


Feel better now?

Sorry - I over reacted to your comment.  (I did feel better, but then I felt bad) 


:)


Bob Bone

Lots of great replies, thanks guys. I think some of the "off" replies are based on the fact that the term "songwriter" is very vague.
 
Songwriters come in various shapes & forms. Many do not play any instrument with any proficiency whatsoever. For them, loops are invaluable. The ability to change a loops tempo & key with ease would be indispensable. As I recall, Sonar is very good at that (my last version was Sonar 5).
 
Some songwriters can play an instrument, but they aren't "very good" for them, the ability to correct tempo of a recorded clip is very useful. For the person who plays keyed instruments (Keyboards, synths, piano, etc...) midi quantization is a great tool. Input quantization would be helpful. For the hack guitar player (raises hand) the ability to quantize audio would be great, the ability to slice out a note/chord & raise/lower it's pitch would be great.
 
As mentioned earlier, loops are a great way to organize & compose an arrangement. Do I need two choruses? What happens if I repeat the Intro here? etc... Being able to move them around freely is very helpful. & the Matrix in Sonar X2a looks like a good way to do that. Can I record my parts directly into the matrix like I can with Live?
 
Other DAW software includes this functionality as well. Some implement these better, some worse. The same can be said for many of the other issues some of you have mentioned that I did not, like staff view, publishing, virtual instruments, session drummer (which I agree is a great help to a non-drumming songwriter)
 
After Sonar 5, I haven't bought another DAW (until recently) because I realized it wasn't really what I needed. It was more geared towards the producer, for mixing & editing purposes. If you had a song that needed to be recorded, mixed, & produced, then yeah Sonar performed very well. Then Ableton live came out & I think changed the whole industry.
 
I didn't buy Live, but to me it seems like a lot of the concepts introduced by live has been adopted by other distributions. Cubase & ProTools developed play lists, where you could name a section of a song "Intro" or "Verse 1" then tell the DAW which sections to play & when. Which I thought was a major step for the songwriter.
 
Sure you could do the same thing with Sonar, with a few mouse clicks, but it was a "manual" tedious process compared to the way you could do it in other DAWs.
 
Recently, I bought ElevenRack, a guitar processor/audio interface for ProTools. it came with a free copy of ProTools 10 (basically LE)so I got to thinking about DAWS again; basically looking for something that can improve my current process, or just make it easier.
 
When I got away from Sonar5, I just started working with hardware; either a Fantom-S, Fantom-X, or an MV-8800. I sample a guitar loop, build a pattern around it, then arrange it. After I have a "working copy" I track it from start to finish into an AW4416 (another reason for looking into computer based DAWs, is that the AW is about to give up the ghost). My daughter plays the drums, I play guitar & bass, I record the sequenced keys (if there are any), then I'll sing or my daughter would sing, or we'll both sing.
 
Then I'd edit, mix, apply effects, & master all on the AW4416. Which I can do with Sonar 5.
 
So my current need isn't to replace the AW4416. I want to replace the MV-8800.

chuckebaby

vintagevibe

chuckebaby


loops, loops are a songwriters best friend, 

Real songwriters don't depend on loops.  

not for a final product, just for getting foundation of a song down.
I don't use use loops in my music, but I do create foundations of songs around hooks,
what is a hook, its a loop basically isn't it ?
 
I do though on the other hand think there are many great musicians out there that do use loops.
so for you to say, "real musicians don't use loops, that is thin and weak, shallow even.
 
an artist is an artist , loops may help them get to where they want to go.
like I said, I don't use loops but that is non sense to say real musicians don't use loops.
I used to think like that, that's narrow minded.
 
hope i cleared this up for you 
 
good luck with that  :)

I didn't say "real musicians don't use loops".  I said real songwriters don't depend on loops.  I'm not against loops in all situations but if you are a songwriter and you get your chord changes from loops it is dishonest and indicates a lack of actual songwriting skill.  If you, as a songwriter, come up with your own melody and chord changes loops can be beneficial in producing but people are taking whole chord sequences from loops and saying they "wrote it".  If you create music by jamming over loops and then slicing and dicing that is not really songwriting.  It doesn't necessarily mean you are not an artist, just not a songwriter.  Just my opinion.

If I find loops that perfectly realize the rhythm patterns or melodies or whatever I image in my mind, I'll use them without feeling guilty because I can simply save time (I consider myself a real songwriter). The thing is, it's very unlikely to find one (I've never found one) or it's going to take a long time to find it so it's much faster to create it myself. 

vintagevibe

chuckebaby

vintagevibe

chuckebaby


loops, loops are a songwriters best friend, 

Real songwriters don't depend on loops.  

not for a final product, just for getting foundation of a song down.
I don't use use loops in my music, but I do create foundations of songs around hooks,
what is a hook, its a loop basically isn't it ?

I do though on the other hand think there are many great musicians out there that do use loops.
so for you to say, "real musicians don't use loops, that is thin and weak, shallow even.

an artist is an artist , loops may help them get to where they want to go.
like I said, I don't use loops but that is non sense to say real musicians don't use loops.
I used to think like that, that's narrow minded.

hope i cleared this up for you 

good luck with that  :)

I didn't say "real musicians don't use loops".  I said real songwriters don't depend on loops.  I'm not against loops in all situations but if you are a songwriter and you get your chord changes from loops it is dishonest and indicates a lack of actual songwriting skill.  If you, as a songwriter, come up with your own melody and chord changes loops can be beneficial in producing but people are taking whole chord sequences from loops and saying they "wrote it".  If you create music by jamming over loops and then slicing and dicing that is not really songwriting.  It doesn't necessarily mean you are not an artist, just not a songwriter.  Just my opinion.

so now your not against loops in "all situations" ?
so if you use a little bit of loops, you ARE real songwriter, or is it if you only use 20% loops in your song then your ARE NOT a real songwriter ?
where is this imaginary line you have drawn to certify real songwriters from the non real songwriters ? and did you obtain this info from WIKI ?
 
way to change your story after insulting half the people on this forum.
 
you tried to single me out by insult me, but guess what....
 
Fail.
 
 

The term "songwriter" is kinda hard to define. 
Is a songwriter a "composer'? 
Is a songwriter a "musician" ?
Can a drummer who doesn't write lyrics be a songwriter? 

But, anyhow, I do call myself a "songwriter" from time to time and over the years I have "composed" close to 60 "songs". Some are instrumentals. On top of that I wrote radio Jingles for a few years. ( are those songs?? no they are Jingles) 

Back when, all you needed was a guitar or piano and a tape recorder. That was all it took to make a "Song Demo" to submit to a record label or to your band mates. 

Things have changed and music has changed. Thanks to software we now have music ( songs) that can be made by non-musicians.  

Most of this software has evolved along those lines. Sonar is used by a lot of old school musician/songwriters/performers like me but I would  hazard a guess that the majority of users are more the producer types and people with very limited musicianship. This is fine. 
The only difference is that I could record a whole album or movie score without software, the others cannot. But software has made my life easier too ( I think?) 

So to me the real question would be: 

What tools does Sonar offer the Traditional Composer musician.  
What tools does Sonar offer the Modern Producer non musician.   

...but if you are a songwriter and you get your chord changes from loops it is dishonest and indicates a lack of actual songwriting skill.

 
These discussion are always fun.   
 
Scenario 1: I write a blues song using standard 12 bar I IV V changes.
 
Scenario 2: I write the same blues song using loops that happen to be standard 12 bar I IV V changes.
 
What's the difference?